"safe" oil temperature

Started by 80 Vert, September 29, 2008, 07:48:45 PM

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80 Vert

What is a safe engine oil temp and whats too hot?
Lets say you run a good synthetic oil, what would one expect to run temperature wise?
2010 T5 Transporter TDI  Tuned by Superior Tuning NZ
2003 Jetta Coupe soon to be R36TT
1991 Golf GTI 2.0 TSI swapped
1963 Type 34 Karmann Ghia, turbo 2.0
1990 Porsche 964 911 Carrera 4
1980 1303 Beetle vert, under restoration

qta4

Good question John, my car has run at 150c many times, now at about 110,120 driving really hard
Skill is, sucessfully tightrope walking across the Niagra Falls.
Intelligence is, having the sense not to do it.

Aidan

Quote from: qta4 on September 29, 2008, 07:51:14 PM
Good question John, my car has run at 150c many times, now at about 110,120 driving really hard

Hmm, I've never seen mine past 92, running Mobil 1.
Das Auto(s): 2007 MKV GTI Manual and a random Beemer

Hoff

98 usually for me but its been up to 115.
1985 Mk2 Golf GTI
1900 High comp race engine, Advanti magswrapped in F1's,Nardi wheel,Samco Coolant Hoses,KW Varient 2 Coilovers,OMP front strut brace,256mm brake upgrade
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80 Vert

My gauge was at 235F today beating on it a lot, Google tells me thats 110C.
Previous with stg1 it was 200-210F max so quite an increase, not really concerned but as with any gauge you end up looking at the damn thing all the time.
Summer heat will be the test, may look at installing oil cooler if temps rise more.
2010 T5 Transporter TDI  Tuned by Superior Tuning NZ
2003 Jetta Coupe soon to be R36TT
1991 Golf GTI 2.0 TSI swapped
1963 Type 34 Karmann Ghia, turbo 2.0
1990 Porsche 964 911 Carrera 4
1980 1303 Beetle vert, under restoration

Aidan

Quote from: vert1 on September 29, 2008, 08:00:57 PM
My gauge was at 235F today beating on it a lot, Google tells me thats 110C.
Previous with stg1 it was 200-210F max so quite an increase, not really concerned but as with any gauge you end up looking at the damn thing all the time.
Summer heat will be the test, may look at installing oil cooler if temps rise more.

Is that on one of your Beetles, it says here that they shouldn't run over 240.
Das Auto(s): 2007 MKV GTI Manual and a random Beemer

qta4

I am not too concerned with really high oil temps John,just change oil at more regular intervals
Skill is, sucessfully tightrope walking across the Niagra Falls.
Intelligence is, having the sense not to do it.

gti vr6

mine runs around 90 once warm. 135 was the hottest and that was around Pukekohe in summer

1986 Mk2 Scirocco
2021 T6.1 4M LWB Transporter Trendline

80 Vert

Quote from: Aidan on September 29, 2008, 08:05:09 PM
Is that on one of your Beetles, it says here that they shouldn't run over 240.

No, its on the Jetta.
Aircooled engines are a big no no for high temps as they are 70% oil cooled.
2010 T5 Transporter TDI  Tuned by Superior Tuning NZ
2003 Jetta Coupe soon to be R36TT
1991 Golf GTI 2.0 TSI swapped
1963 Type 34 Karmann Ghia, turbo 2.0
1990 Porsche 964 911 Carrera 4
1980 1303 Beetle vert, under restoration

qta4

In an ideal world oil temp should reflect water temp, in fact many VW systems control oil temp by feeding oil through water  system.
But in modified world these temps change.

My oil temp does not reflect water temp at all, bugger.

Skill is, sucessfully tightrope walking across the Niagra Falls.
Intelligence is, having the sense not to do it.

Angle

Does it matter how hot the oil gets if it is suited to the temps (ie: not breaking down?) or is the engine limited to the heat it can handle (ie: although it's lubricated it will cook?)

Aidan

Quote from: qta4 on September 29, 2008, 08:15:10 PM
In an ideal world oil temp should reflect water temp, in fact many VW systems control oil temp by feeding oil through water  system.
But in modified world these temps change.

My oil temp does not reflect water temp at all, bugger.



That would explain my temp. Actually remember seeing a golf at the workshop where the oil cooler had failed and had oil running through the radiator, dick head owner didn't click something was up when his water in the res tank was a different colour, and had run it for 5k after noticing it. Overheated.
Das Auto(s): 2007 MKV GTI Manual and a random Beemer

80 Vert

Apparently mineral oil turns to varnish at around 140C so yes it will harm your engine to run it too hot.
In all my N/A cars I've ever owned the oil has always been 100-110C, I would expect an S/C or turbo car to run a little hotter.
This is where a good synthetic oil will come into its own.
2010 T5 Transporter TDI  Tuned by Superior Tuning NZ
2003 Jetta Coupe soon to be R36TT
1991 Golf GTI 2.0 TSI swapped
1963 Type 34 Karmann Ghia, turbo 2.0
1990 Porsche 964 911 Carrera 4
1980 1303 Beetle vert, under restoration

Angle

Quote from: vert1 on September 29, 2008, 08:23:22 PM
Apparently mineral oil turns to varnish at around 140C so yes it will harm your engine to run it too hot.
In all my N/A cars I've ever owned the oil has always been 100-110C, I would expect an S/C or turbo car to run a little hotter.
This is where a good synthetic oil will come into its own.

Exactly, which gets back to my question that I'd love to understand. It might help me get over my obsession with using the 'right' engine oil, if I have a better handle on heat relative to the engine. Yes, the engine will make less power, and at some point will pre-detonate until it sounds like a diesel, but assumming the engine is running correctly and the timing is intact:

Does it matter how hot the oil gets if it is suited to the temps (ie: not breaking down?) or is the engine limited to the heat it can handle (ie: although it's lubricated it will cook?)

qta4

Vw and others use a preheat system ,connected to the primary water circuit of the car,primarily to preheat the engine oil.

But these systems often fail with many miles cross poluting engine oil with engine water, not particularly good.

As long as water temp does not exceed design temps alls cool, but with a modfied engine, a seperate oil cooller is really required.

Skill is, sucessfully tightrope walking across the Niagra Falls.
Intelligence is, having the sense not to do it.

qta4

Quote from: AngleBox on September 29, 2008, 08:27:03 PM

Does it matter how hot the oil gets if it is suited to the temps (ie: not breaking down?) or is the engine limited to the heat it can handle (ie: although it's lubricated it will cook?)

Dennis, i would be surprised if your engine oil exceeds 140c,for any prolonged period anyway.

I have exceeded 150 c many times, and have now fitted an external oil cooler,alls much better , but still not whrer i want temps to be.

My intercooler is shielding my radiator too much, and the only way i can overcome this problem is to redesign the whole intercooler thing, which i will do prior to next track day in Dec.

It gives a whole new appreciation to those who build a race car and all is good from day one.
Skill is, sucessfully tightrope walking across the Niagra Falls.
Intelligence is, having the sense not to do it.

Period_Correct_

Quote from: AngleBox on September 29, 2008, 08:27:03 PM
pre-detonate

when the spark goes off its deflagragration...  ;D

I reckon you should try and get the oil temps as what the engine is specified to run at. as the engine is designed to work with a certain tempreture for thermal expansion... when you find that you'll find the range you're looking for.

generally the cooler the better.
1971 Porsche 911T | 1990 Audi Quattro Turbo | 2003 Audi RS6 Avant | 2009 Renault Megane R26

robh

110C is bugger all, as Noel has stated already 150C is easily seen on turbo cars when flogged to death at somewhere like Pukey.

That said I don't think you should aim for 150C :)

I can't remember are you still running factory water/oil heat exchanger?  If so I think if you want to go to Pukey and do some flat out driving you will certainly be way over 110C by a long way.  Might pay to fit an air/oil cooler now or unplug you oil temp sender so you don't keep looking at it!
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Angle

#18
Quote from: qta4 on September 29, 2008, 08:37:00 PM
Dennis, i would be surprised if your engine oil exceeds 140c,for any prolonged period anyway.

Noel, my question isn't focused solely on my car, although I do appreciate your concern. The Anglia sits around 180 - 190 degrees F (about 88 degrees C max). I've installed the largest cores I could fit in the radiator frame when I rebuilt it. I'd still like to see the temps lower, and I'll have Pro-coat put their temperature disappating coating on it (thermostat is 180 degree F). That all sounds about right doesn't it Noel?

So, even if the oil doesn't break down, you could raise the temp of your engine to the point where the moving parts expand to the point that they significantly alter the internal tolerances and create such high friction that the engine fails? Is that the simple explanation?


Period_Correct_

Quote from: AngleBox on September 29, 2008, 09:57:41 PM
So, even if the oil doesn't break down, you could raise the temp of your engine to the point where the moving parts expand to the point that they significantly alter the internal tolerances and create such high friction that the engine fails? Is that the simple explanation?

high temps can and will lead to many things... 1 being thermal expansion and the tolerances being over shot. but depending on some factors, detonation occurs before that. thank GOD.... so either way you're damned!
1971 Porsche 911T | 1990 Audi Quattro Turbo | 2003 Audi RS6 Avant | 2009 Renault Megane R26