Can you make a GTI go like a standard Edition 30

Started by 106_racecar, August 27, 2013, 07:58:30 AM

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schattenblau

Quote from: GLIDN on September 03, 2013, 10:36:58 PM

The MK6 GTI, is stronger feeling as it has more torque than MK5. Also simply a exhaust, intake and tune would take you to 270-280HP on the mk6


It does ?

According to the factory spec sheets, both are rated at 280Nm; MK5 @1800rpm, Mk6 @1700rpm.

For comparison the Ed30's has 300Nm@2200rpm.

GLIDN

Quote from: schattenblau on September 04, 2013, 12:51:17 PM
It does ?

According to the factory spec sheets, both are rated at 280Nm; MK5 @1800rpm, Mk6 @1700rpm.

For comparison the Ed30's has 300Nm@2200rpm.

From logs I have seen. The TSI motor is stronger as far as torque is concerned. As it starts lower and seems more consistent in the range. Also has a much better High pressure fuel pump.
So better scope as well.
Audi A4 DTM - K04 NZ New | All bolt-ons | Carbon Clean done
2012 MK6R Golf |Stage 3+ | Stage 4 DSG | Tuned & Built by HSP Tuning

schattenblau

Ah yes, the torque curve is definitely broader and smoother, however that same smoothness makes the Mk6 feel a bit flat and less sporting than a good Mk5.

;)

106_racecar

Quote from: GLIDN on September 03, 2013, 10:36:58 PM
If there was that much of a difference between the 2, I can assure you the MK5's diverter valve is blown.
Don't believe the hype about the new GFB diverter valve. They already had to recall a complete run of them for being problematic. It will also always operate slower than the plastic VW valves due to weight. Not really noticed on manual cars. But on DSG every millisecond counts during gear changes for the DV operation.
More weight will always mean slower.

The MK6 GTI, is stronger feeling as it has more torque than MK5. Also simply a exhaust, intake and tune would take you to 270-280HP on the mk6

Vs

MK5 Gti, intake, fuel pump, exhaust, tune which will bring you up to 260-280hp.

You sure know your VW's!  I have read that the Mk6 based TSI motor was lower cost to maintain due to having a camchain driven motor rather than a cambelt too?

My experience from driving them recently was that the Mk6 was much more responsive to the accelerator (not sure whether the diff of 114000kms for the Mk5 and 64000 kms for the Mk6 makes much difference?) and very quiet which apparently is due to some sort of film on the windscreen to cut wind noise.  Once past 5000rpm, the car was much more vocal through to 6500 which I liked! Something else that I heard also was that the Mk6 was much stiffer in the body shell too?

It sounds like schattenblau is very happy with his Stage 1 Mk5 and that is a much cheaper option right now until the Mk6 GTI's get upgraded to Mk7 GTI's.
2007 Golf GTI

GLIDN

Quote from: 106_racecar on September 04, 2013, 03:13:18 PM
You sure know your VW's!  I have read that the Mk6 based TSI motor was lower cost to maintain due to having a camchain driven motor rather than a cambelt too?

My experience from driving them recently was that the Mk6 was much more responsive to the accelerator (not sure whether the diff of 114000kms for the Mk5 and 64000 kms for the Mk6 makes much difference?) and very quiet which apparently is due to some sort of film on the windscreen to cut wind noise.  Once past 5000rpm, the car was much more vocal through to 6500 which I liked! Something else that I heard also was that the Mk6 was much stiffer in the body shell too?

It sounds like schattenblau is very happy with his Stage 1 Mk5 and that is a much cheaper option right now until the Mk6 GTI's get upgraded to Mk7 GTI's.

Correct, MK6 has cam chain MK5 has cambelt
The "responsiveness" as such is actually more to do with the better control of the New drive by wire system compared to the MK5.

The MK6 is more quiet inside due to the new interior layout and the fact the speaker is located in the front of the door (only one opening). The MK5 has a 2 holes in the doors and located right next to your side. So Road noise will always be more apparent.
Also Due to the MK6 going to a single door design with an Internally removed Window Regulator system, MK5 has a solid internal door structure with the outer skin of the door being removable. Much higher chance of road noise.

The Exhaust is actually louder inside on the MK6 vs MK5. Until you fold the rear seats down, Then ironically the MK5 is actually louder than MK6.
For the most part. THE MK5 and MK6 chassis is virtually identical. Only C pillar change (with swage lines in the door skins) and different front fenders and noise clip. Hence most parts are direct swap.

We are also very happy with our MK5 Stage 1 (APR), but I have experienced both Stage 2 and Stage 2+ in my MK5 GTI I sold a year ago.
So I know what is in store once you do these upgrades. Again referring to my original post in this thread.
Audi A4 DTM - K04 NZ New | All bolt-ons | Carbon Clean done
2012 MK6R Golf |Stage 3+ | Stage 4 DSG | Tuned & Built by HSP Tuning

schattenblau

Quote from: 106_racecar on September 04, 2013, 03:13:18 PM
It sounds like schattenblau is very happy with his Stage 1 Mk5 and that is a much cheaper option right now until the Mk6 GTI's get upgraded to Mk7 GTI's.

Happy as a clam named Larry   ;D

If you don't have any GTI then go for the newer car, preferably in Ed35 guise.

If you already have a Mk5 then a Mk6 is a couple of steps sideways and one back.

;)

GLIDN

Quote from: schattenblau on September 04, 2013, 06:09:31 PM
Happy as a clam named Larry   ;D

If you don't have any GTI then go for the newer car, preferably in Ed35 guise.

If you already have a Mk5 then a Mk6 is a couple of steps sideways and one back.

;)

Do remember the ED35 is merely a MK6 GTI with the Golf R TFSI engine in it.
So it will produce more power than a tuned MK6 GTI only with a fuel pump upgrade.
Otherwise the Mk6 is still an excellent contender, quick and still fairly newish.

Audi A4 DTM - K04 NZ New | All bolt-ons | Carbon Clean done
2012 MK6R Golf |Stage 3+ | Stage 4 DSG | Tuned & Built by HSP Tuning

rambo_005

Quote from: GLIDN on September 04, 2013, 11:02:39 PM
Do remember the ED35 is merely a MK6 GTI with the Golf R TFSI engine in it.

EA113 or EA888?

I get confused when you say TFSI and TSI as they are marketing names only.

schattenblau

ditto!

i prefer to use the ea codes.

ea113 - mk5,  mk6 ed35, r

ea888 - mk6

GLIDN

Quote from: rambo_005 on September 05, 2013, 08:24:00 AM
EA113 or EA888?

I get confused when you say TFSI and TSI as they are marketing names only.

What schattenblau stated for engine Type.

I'm afraid only us really know the engine Makes. I could tell you it's a BWA, CDA, AXX etc if you like?
Most people that browse the internet and or Vask it would be easier to understand TFSI or TSI (TSI being 1.2, 1.4, 2.0)
Audi A4 DTM - K04 NZ New | All bolt-ons | Carbon Clean done
2012 MK6R Golf |Stage 3+ | Stage 4 DSG | Tuned & Built by HSP Tuning

106_racecar

Quote from: schattenblau on September 04, 2013, 06:09:31 PM
Happy as a clam named Larry   ;D

If you don't have any GTI then go for the newer car, preferably in Ed35 guise.

If you already have a Mk5 then a Mk6 is a couple of steps sideways and one back.

;)
Thanks for all the feedback and esp to GLIDN for your time on the phone last week - In view of the scarcity of the ED30's, I am thinking that i'll go for a late model Mk5 or hold out for a Mk6.
2007 Golf GTI

Mrscene

I got an ed30 stage 1, drive mine and see the difference.

I would love to see a  mk5 GTI chipped take my edition 30 on take off and see who wins..
But of fun.

I drove a golf R about two weeks ago standard suppose to be pushing out about 200kw and my ed30 feels a tad bit faster and responsive

GLIDN

Quote from: Mrscene on September 10, 2013, 05:42:23 PM
I got an ed30 stage 1, drive mine and see the difference.

I would love to see a  mk5 GTI chipped take my edition 30 on take off and see who wins..
But of fun.

I drove a golf R about two weeks ago standard suppose to be pushing out about 200kw and my ed30 feels a tad bit faster and responsive

I'm afraid you seem to have taken the advise provided out of context.
Around town etc the GTI will be quicker, as soon as you get into bring able to stretch the ED30's legs then its a whole new story.

The Golf R is infact 199kw's. where as your tuned ED30, should be around 200-210kw's.
So it will be faster again, motorway driving etc.

If you compare a manual ED30 against a tuned DSG gti, I'm afraid the GTI will really be surprising.
Audi A4 DTM - K04 NZ New | All bolt-ons | Carbon Clean done
2012 MK6R Golf |Stage 3+ | Stage 4 DSG | Tuned & Built by HSP Tuning

james

my 5 pennys worth ..  The TSI is rubbish engine they only ever made it with a k03 turbo ..  the only reason they made it was to be more green!   Yea it is better if you just want a stage 1 remap.

This was why in the Golf-r  they used the TFSI engine as it is epic,  can be tuned to over 450bhp and wont spit a rod ( CDL Engine)

I messed around the a BWA engine (GTI) and installed a k04 setup to see what the engine could do and i got 370BHP out of it. You get a slightly different fill to the (ed30/s3) engine due to the compression ratio. i personally like it as it gave you a little more top end..

I did get 400bhp from the BWA with WMI but it blew up after 5k so there is a limit lol.

GLIDN

Quote from: james on September 22, 2013, 09:53:58 PM
my 5 pennys worth ..  The TSI is rubbish engine they only ever made it with a k03 turbo ..  the only reason they made it was to be more green!   Yea it is better if you just want a stage 1 remap.

This was why in the Golf-r  they used the TFSI engine as it is epic,  can be tuned to over 450bhp and wont spit a rod ( CDL Engine)

I messed around the a BWA engine (GTI) and installed a k04 setup to see what the engine could do and i got 370BHP out of it. You get a slightly different fill to the (ed30/s3) engine due to the compression ratio. i personally like it as it gave you a little more top end..

I did get 400bhp from the BWA with WMI but it blew up after 5k so there is a limit lol.

I would say your tune was to blame here.

We had a BWA engine running 275kw's at the front wheels on GT3067 turbo from memory.
Did more than 40,000kms in the vehicle with no issues what so ever.

The only reason people blow rods on the mk5 TFSI engine (non factory k04 engine)
Is the have applied to much torque low down in the revs. That always kills these engines.

Audi A4 DTM - K04 NZ New | All bolt-ons | Carbon Clean done
2012 MK6R Golf |Stage 3+ | Stage 4 DSG | Tuned & Built by HSP Tuning

james

#35
yea i was running 280kw at the weels.  to be fair it did not spit a rod it blew a piston ring.


The mapper it good   r-tech.. best mapper in the UK. ( i sell his maps here in NZ)

here is my car

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43854.0.html

my old engine



and rr of old engine

GLIDN

Quote from: james on September 23, 2013, 11:21:20 AM
yea i was running 280kw at the weels.  to be fair it did not spit a rod it blew a piston ring.


The mapper it good   r-tech.. best mapper in the UK. ( i sell his maps here in NZ)

here is my car

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43854.0.html

my old engine



and rr of old engine


I know R-tech, I also know you sell their tunes over here as well. Even thou you posted on MK5golfgti.co.uk you moved to Australia?
Nope no issue's with piston rings either. I am well aware of what you mean thou.
Audi A4 DTM - K04 NZ New | All bolt-ons | Carbon Clean done
2012 MK6R Golf |Stage 3+ | Stage 4 DSG | Tuned & Built by HSP Tuning

james

leave for oz on the 3rd of December going up to Auckland for the last 3 weeks.

currently in QT

106_racecar

The MK6 GTI, is stronger feeling as it has more torque than MK5. Also simply a exhaust, intake and tune would take you to 270-280HP on the mk6

Vs

MK5 Gti, intake, fuel pump, exhaust, tune which will bring you up to 260-280hp.
[/quote]
So I bought a 2007 Mk5 in the end.  I have been on a variety of forum and am trying to quantify the gains for each tune and it looks like:
Stage 1 remap gives you 240-250hp depending on the remap provider. Bluefin is about 240hp and the APR/Revo is about 250hp.
Stage 2 remap is another 20-30hp, so approx 260-280hp (as above). This requires the downpipe and intake from what I have read.

- Does the intake need to be the Carbonio type or is an airfilter replacement sufficient?
- If you do the downpipe and intake, do you need to update the remap?  Again, from various forums it appears that the parts provide about  10hp and the S2 remap another 10hp?
- What gains does a full exhaust like a Milltek give you over and above the downpipe? I have seen this one on TM http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/volkswagen/auction-653009041.htm  From what I have heard the DP is the biggest contributor to hp gain.

I have also heard that if your battery dies or you replace it, that the remap needs to be reloaded - not sure if that is accurate?
2007 Golf GTI

schattenblau

Quote from: 106_racecar on October 23, 2013, 11:37:09 AM
I have also heard that if your battery dies or you replace it, that the remap needs to be reloaded - not sure if that is accurate?

Chinese whispers.

;D

Got to be some kind of dumb to load important stuff like an engine map to volatile memory (memory that requires power to retain stored data).

:laugh: