A cautionary tale...aftermarket suspension and the LVVTA

Started by le mans, March 23, 2014, 11:19:10 AM

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RS ZWEI

1980 VW Golf GTI Track Car
1995 Audi RS2
2003 Mini Cooper S (Written off - rear ended)
2005 Mini Cooper S
2006 Skoda Octavia vRS Combi
2009 Renault Megane 230 R26 (Written off - rear ended)
2013 Renault Megane RS265 Redbull RB8


Filx

Wow, I'm stunned!

For one I'm impressed with the support from KW with them actually commissioning a test at their cost (I assume it was their cost?) to support what must be an almost one off requirement meaning zero return on investment for them. That's awesome.

Secondly that some LVVTA TAC boffins still had enough concern about the product to not allow it after those tests were performed AND given the product is from one of the largest performance suspension manufacturers in the world (e.g. they must have sold thousands of these kits into some of the most litigious markets over the last 10+ years without issues?) AND that is going on an enthusiast vehicle that will not exactly be racking up thousands of km'!?!?!?  :o >:(

I still think we live in one of the best countries on earth to be a automotive enthusiast with the freedoms that we do have and I understand they have rules they need to work within, but that's incredibly disappointing they can't make an exception in exceptional cases like this. From the outside looking in and based on the info available it seems like a huge failure of common sense.
FAIL - First Attempt In Learning

brian

When did common sense and a Govt dept have a relationship?
Škoda Fabia 1.0 TSI Race Blue

89 Coupe

Quote from: Filx on November 27, 2014, 01:15:56 PM
Wow, I'm stunned!

For one I'm impressed with the support from KW with them actually commissioning a test at their cost (I assume it was their cost?) to support what must be an almost one off requirement meaning zero return on investment for them. That's awesome.

Secondly that some LVVTA TAC boffins still had enough concern about the product to not allow it after those tests were performed AND given the product is from one of the largest performance suspension manufacturers in the world (e.g. they must have sold thousands of these kits into some of the most litigious markets over the last 10+ years without issues?) AND that is going on an enthusiast vehicle that will not exactly be racking up thousands of km'!?!?!?  :o >:(

I still think we live in one of the best countries on earth to be a automotive enthusiast with the freedoms that we do have and I understand they have rules they need to work within, but that's incredibly disappointing they can't make an exception in exceptional cases like this. From the outside looking in and based on the info available it seems like a huge failure of common sense.

This!
1991 BMW E34 535i | 1989 Nissan Skyline R32 | 1993 Nissan Skyline R33 Coupe | 1989 Audi Coupe Quattro | 1996 Audi UrS6 | 1994 BMW E34 540i Touring | 1995 Audi 80 Quattro Avant | 1993 Audi UrS4 Avant | 1999 Audi S4 | 2009 Audi S8 | 1995 Toyota Cresta JZX90

spooln

Suck pants. Can you on sell the kit to someone overseas with a less stupid process?
77 CS1 Fiat Spider. 78 Mk1 Scirocco. 83 Mk1 GTI. 12 Abarth 595C Competizione. 18 Golf R. 20 Kodiaq vRS

80 Vert

Wow I'm speechless.............not much else to say really, bureaucracy completely out of control.
2010 T5 Transporter TDI  Tuned by Superior Tuning NZ
2003 Jetta Coupe soon to be R36TT
1991 Golf GTI 2.0 TSI swapped
1963 Type 34 Karmann Ghia, turbo 2.0
1990 Porsche 964 911 Carrera 4
1980 1303 Beetle vert, under restoration

le mans

Pikes River to blame I think. By the way LVVTA is not a govt dept. Could possibly on-sell - suspension is road legal pretty much anywhere in the northern hemisphere. Problem is the cost of shipping will make it hardly worth it.

weta.worker

Quote from: le mans on November 26, 2014, 08:41:52 PM
Overdue for an update on this.

KW commissioned a static strength test from a local university in Germany. This is what we had been waiting so long for. The testing was finally completed with the report dated 10/09/14. They compared the steering arm on the OE RS2 strut and the KW RS2. The KW strut was stiffer than the OE strut and neither showed any evidence of cracking at Fmax of approx 20kN (the equivalent of hanging a 2 tonne weight off the steering arm!).

The LVVTA TAC met and discussed the new information. They basically kicked KW into touch and rejected the suspension for NZ certification again. I wont go into details as it's not for public consumption. Suffice it to say the German KW manager who has spent months following up on this was not a happy camper and neither was I. To be fair to TAC they did have a couple of valid points I thought, including a lack of fatigue testing data. KW have since produced some fatigue test results for a Mercedes component they make and showed the KW inox welds to be more resiliant than the OE welds. However this is mute as LVVTA have stopped replying to my emails and I can only assume they are not going to spend any more time on it. KW have also said they are not going to put any more resources into this so it's a stale mate.

The KW suspension is still on my car while I wait for a Koni/H&R kit I've ordered to arrive. On occasion I take the car for a cruise around the 'driveway' to keep the fluids moving around and the KW kit is just fabulous as a sports focussed set up. But alas it's not to be and I have to move on.

:'(
1994 RS2 GUARDS RED
2001 RS4 NOGARO BLUE

le mans


Quote from: Filx on November 27, 2014, 01:15:56 PM
Wow, I'm stunned!

For one I'm impressed with the support from KW with them actually commissioning a test at their cost (I assume it was their cost?) to support what must be an almost one off requirement meaning zero return on investment for them. That's awesome.

Secondly that some LVVTA TAC boffins still had enough concern about the product to not allow it after those tests were performed AND given the product is from one of the largest performance suspension manufacturers in the world (e.g. they must have sold thousands of these kits into some of the most litigious markets over the last 10+ years without issues?) AND that is going on an enthusiast vehicle that will not exactly be racking up thousands of km'!?!?!?  :o >:(

I still think we live in one of the best countries on earth to be a automotive enthusiast with the freedoms that we do have and I understand they have rules they need to work within, but that's incredibly disappointing they can't make an exception in exceptional cases like this. From the outside looking in and based on the info available it seems like a huge failure of common sense.
Phil, thanks for your comments. I find the 'obsession' over the steering arms interesting. Let's say a 'normal' front coilover strut (ie one without a steering arm attached) came detached from the chassis due weld failure you could expect quite an adverse outcome in terms of vehicle control and yet they don't require all this data for these aftermarket struts. Moreover, the multiple welds on the KW steering arm gives it more redundancy as a single weld failure would not result in complete failure of the arm.

slowmo

Current: 2004 MK4 R32 3-door NZ New DBP

Past: 2010 MK6 GTI / 2013 Nissan Leaf LOL / 2007 B7 RS4 / 2006 MK5 R32 / 2005 MK5 GTI / 1998 MK4 GTI / 1997 B5 A4 MTM


Filx

Quote from: le mans on November 28, 2014, 07:59:28 AM
Phil, thanks for your comments. I find the 'obsession' over the steering arms interesting. Let's say a 'normal' front coilover strut (ie one without a steering arm attached) came detached from the chassis due weld failure you could expect quite an adverse outcome in terms of vehicle control and yet they don't require all this data for these aftermarket struts. Moreover, the multiple welds on the KW steering arm gives it more redundancy as a single weld failure would not result in complete failure of the arm.

I agree, incredibly frustrating given some of the crappy coilovers on the market that you see get fitted and certified regularly. Also that there is no appeal process. I guess at some stage you have to say how much more time do you put into versus investing that in something more productive.

I would have thought you could resell the kit overseas and at least recoup some of the costs? An alternate strategy might be try and track down someone rallying/racing an S2 / CQ that might want it for a tarmac setup.
FAIL - First Attempt In Learning

Stanceking

Quote from: le mans on November 28, 2014, 11:10:55 AM
It is, yes.
Will fit the b4 chassis sedan and avant

Quote from: Filx on November 28, 2014, 11:43:08 AM
I agree, incredibly frustrating given some of the crappy coilovers on the market that you see get fitted and certified regularly. Also that there is no appeal process. I guess at some stage you have to say how much more time do you put into versus investing that in something more productive.

I would have thought you could resell the kit overseas and at least recoup some of the costs? An alternate strategy might be try and track down someone rallying/racing an S2 / CQ that might want it for a tarmac setup.

Only the fronts would fit a coupe. Rears are for a sedan or avant
1983 500sec

RS ZWEI

Quote from: le mans on November 28, 2014, 11:10:55 AM
It is, yes.

I wonder if the RS2 owner I met who is leaving NZ on Sunday which be keen on the coilovers?
1980 VW Golf GTI Track Car
1995 Audi RS2
2003 Mini Cooper S (Written off - rear ended)
2005 Mini Cooper S
2006 Skoda Octavia vRS Combi
2009 Renault Megane 230 R26 (Written off - rear ended)
2013 Renault Megane RS265 Redbull RB8

RS ZWEI

Also, I know a couple of OZ based RS2 owner that I could ask if they are interested?
1980 VW Golf GTI Track Car
1995 Audi RS2
2003 Mini Cooper S (Written off - rear ended)
2005 Mini Cooper S
2006 Skoda Octavia vRS Combi
2009 Renault Megane 230 R26 (Written off - rear ended)
2013 Renault Megane RS265 Redbull RB8

Filx

Quote from: Stanceking on November 28, 2014, 01:05:28 PM
Will fit the b4 chassis sedan and avant

Only the fronts would fit a coupe. Rears are for a sedan or avant

Ahh, yeah I forgot that. That does limit the market a bit more.
FAIL - First Attempt In Learning

vwwife

OK long shot here, dormant thread resurrection.

I would be interested to know if you ever had any further action from the LVVTA TAC people with regard to your suspension problems, well, in their eyes.

As it seems to me a group of self appointed amateur car builder have set themselves above a manufacturer, with nationally and internationally accepted standards, therefore denying NZ car enthusiasts the opportunity of fitting their cars with superior components.   

One of LVVTA?s objectives is to have as wide a range of experience, knowledge and skills as possible covered by the TAC at all times, including welding, materials, fabrication, formal and practical engineering, along with knowledge in a diverse range of vehicle types and construction methods. Some
members are professional car builders, and all members have been in the vehicle modification and construction industry or hobby for at least 30 years. A technical representative from the NZ Transport Agency sits on the LVVTA Technical Advisory Committee.  Hmmmmmm, a tech rep from NZTA, pen pushing, desk jockey, who? relevant qualifications for the position?

And from a review of the KW manufacturing facility. 

KW Founder Klaus Wohlfarth is quite a visionary.  He is the creator of the world's only, as far as we know, performance suspension company that is OEM quality capable.   OEM quality capable, Porsche, BMW, Audi, and even lowly VW, recognise these components as satisfactory replacement components, but not he mighty NZ LVVTA TAC. 

Does that mean their components are "direct replacement for original manufacturer parts" ?

So where's the problem?  LVVTA TAC that's where

What technical qualifications do they have which are traceable through NZQA?

Anyway if this dies in cyberspace I won't be surprised, but if not, would be interested to hear any further info, as I am about to submit my car to their tender mercies.

89 Coupe

Well put. It is about time they review and change their regulation standards and get in line with what the rest of the world has been doing for years.  >:(
1991 BMW E34 535i | 1989 Nissan Skyline R32 | 1993 Nissan Skyline R33 Coupe | 1989 Audi Coupe Quattro | 1996 Audi UrS6 | 1994 BMW E34 540i Touring | 1995 Audi 80 Quattro Avant | 1993 Audi UrS4 Avant | 1999 Audi S4 | 2009 Audi S8 | 1995 Toyota Cresta JZX90

le mans

Thanks vwwife, that?s very succinct. I believe LVVTA do have significant expertise in their field but limited knowledge about some of the aftermarket companies they are assessing components from. I have contemplated going through the process again but this time having the strut tested locally (and probably destroyed in the process). This would obviously be quite costly.

Edit: For those of you not using the chrome plugin I?ve got the photbucket images from page 1 working again.