Author Topic: VW Phaeton revisited  (Read 2045 times)

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Offline Pristle

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« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 04:49:48 pm by Pristle »


Offline the phantom

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2016, 08:11:24 pm »
I never really understood how the Phaeton sat in the VW hierarchy, but its C-pillar is sublime

Land Transport New Zealand, taking the fun out of driving since August 2008

Offline Mike1410

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2016, 11:45:06 pm »
 :D What's not to understand? it is/was the top of the VW range and it's only equivalent in VAG terms is an Audi S8....though I personally think the Phaeton is a much classier vehicle. I have been fortunate enough to  tour the "Transparent Factory" at Dresden (https://www.glaesernemanufaktur.de/en) and have seen them being hand built alongside Bentley Continental GT's. Gorgeous car, stunning factory.

Offline the phantom

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2016, 05:47:49 pm »
:D What's not to understand? it is/was the top of the VW range and it's only equivalent in VAG terms is an Audi S8....though I personally think the Phaeton is a much classier vehicle. I have been fortunate enough to  tour the "Transparent Factory" at Dresden (https://www.glaesernemanufaktur.de/en) and have seen them being hand built alongside Bentley Continental GT's. Gorgeous car, stunning factory.

perhaps I should have said "the rationale for the Phaeton" it always seemed a stretch for the VW brand, the same reason Toyota developed the Lexus brand and Nissan, Infiniti
Land Transport New Zealand, taking the fun out of driving since August 2008

Offline Mike1410

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2016, 07:01:07 pm »
I think the rationale for the Phaeton was simply Ferdinand Piech rather than any "sensible" commercial decision making on the part of VW. Whatever biographies you read about him he is certainly a forceful character and seems to always manage to get his own way, as other VAG group employees have found to their cost.

A very, very expensive purpose built factory capable of producing 20,000 units a year yet only some 6,000 cars a year made it off the end of the line and into showrooms so it was obvious early on that it was never going to be a money spinning sales success. Nor was the fact that when you're spending that amount of money on a car, for many people the badge on the front speaks way more loudly than the quality of the product. An 80,000 Mercedes or BMW? not unusual and probably not even the top of the range.  An 80,000 Audi - possible at a stretch. But an 80,000 VW?.....seriously? where's the cachet in that when the car keys are on the golf club bar?

Given that VW were on the point of bankruptcy in 1993 when he took over as chairman, his turnaround of the company fortunes by 2002 when the Phaeton was launched is phenomenal and has to be applauded. But you have to wonder how much more successful (in simple money terms)  the turnaround would have been without all the duplication of effort within the marques.  Audi have quattro technology - fantastic. So VW keep working away at their own completely different version of fwd (Syncro or 4-Motion). Audi have the Q7 luxury 4x4 so VW have to have the Touareg and now Bentley have their hideous creation. VW have the Polo - so Audi have to design and sell a completely different, highly technical aluminium space frame city car to compete (the A2, which cost 50% more than a top of the range Polo and never managed to compete in the city car market). We have one small sporty convertible in the VW range (Golf) so why not have a second built on the same platform (Eos) and never mind the fact that Audi also have the A3 drop top of the same size. We own Bugatti and Lamborghini so let's make our own Audi supercar too (R8). All this internal competition rather than concentrating on competing with what other companies are selling.

The more you look at it, the more ridiculous it is until you realise that VAG obviously still see themselves as 11 different companies (VW, Audi, Skoda, Seat, Porsche, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Ducati, Scania and MAN) rather than one coherent entity. I suppose we should be grateful we don't also have to put up with an Audi Transporter/Kombi equivalent (what would that be? a Q12?) or a Polo sized Bentley.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 07:04:58 pm by Mike1410 »

Online brian

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2016, 07:13:40 pm »
I believe that Ferdinand Piech, in having the various marques competing against each other , moved things forward technically as the competition encouraged each group to try harder rather than accepting the status quo and allowed them to do what they were best at.
ie  how Audi developed into a luxury brand from pretty ordinary beginnings and Skoda into the value for money package, just as two examples
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 07:17:20 pm by brian »
1.6 Polo

Offline Mike1410

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2016, 06:30:55 pm »
I would agree that since their acquisitions, VAG board management have made a fairly good job of separating the main four marques (Audi, VW, Skoda and Seat) into the commercial markets which they feel they fit and have as such established the pecking order of the company. Seat - mass market younger consumer with some sporting flair, Skoda - mass market family vehicle for the more reserved/mature or budget conscious buyer, VW - mass market family/company fleet buyer and Audi - mass market more affluent family or management level company fleet.

I don't think I would agree that this separation has allowed for any great technical progress to be made though. I'm thinking of the fact that we have Ford to thank for the mainstream introduction of airbags, laminated glass windscreens and anti-lock brakes, Saab for the seat belt and Mercedes Benz for electronic stability control and crumple zones. In fact in European marque terms,  Mercedes-Benz and BMW (both companies being more focused on a much smaller but more high retail value end product model ranges) could rightly be considered to be leaders in the vehicle technology stakes. I know that the Audi 200 was the first car to have one touch electric window controls but that's hardly in the same league. Audi did give us quattro in 1981 but Subaru had given the world 4wd mass market cars a decade earlier and even they were far from being the first of their kind.

I think that VAG are very good at teasing technology & products the market would like and then not delivering until lots of other companies have already done so. How many times have we seen at major motor shows a concept for a new retro style Kombi? The XL1 has been touted since 2002 yet it took until 2013 for any to actually be built (and even then only 250 of them were made) by which time Toyota and Honda were leading the way in real world hybrid technology. 

If you go back in VAG history, the companies from which Auto-Union was formed (Audi, Horch, Wanderer, DKW) were all innovative in their design and engineering skills. Even the car that gave life to the Volkswagen company, the kafer, was extremely technologically advanced compared to the competition - though that perhaps had as much to do with it needing to meet the criteria laid down by Adolf Hitler for it's specifications as to the engineering genius of Ferdinand Porsche himself.

Offline the phantom

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2016, 07:41:07 pm »
to a degree, yes; but the AUDI 100 (C3 according to Wikipedia) was a breakthrough in applied aerodynamics, first flush glazing, .30CD, longer than it needed to be to get the aero down



introduced in 1982, the same time as the FIAT Uno, quite an exciting time for a petrol head
Land Transport New Zealand, taking the fun out of driving since August 2008

Offline Mike1410

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2016, 09:18:27 pm »
 ;D ah yes the Typ44 Audi 100/200. Very nice cars. I've previously owned a 200 turbo saloon (2wd), 200 quattro avant and a 100 avant (2wd non turbo). The 200 turbo was particularly well loved in the 12 years I owned it - being akin to a floating armchair for comfort and could outrun a lot of boy racers whilst still looking like a grandad car!

I remember coming back to Leeds from Manchester one night (well early Sunday morning - about 3am) not long after I bought the car and being overtaken & ignored by a motorway patrol police car on a deserted M62 whilst the speedo of the 200 was reading 140mph (225km/h?) Happy memories. The low cd factor aerodynamics must have helped, but none of them were ever particularly economical cars - maybe my right foot was just too heavy when I was younger!  ;D

The downside to the 200 turbo was that although it looked very similar to a standard spec 100 externally almost every bloody part of it (mechanically) was different and by the time I sold it in 2008 trying to get spares was become impossible. It's actually easier to get parts for my 1972 100 coupe s even now than it was getting them for that 10 years ago.

Offline Mike1410

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2016, 09:25:21 pm »
Cannot find a pic of mine but this one is identical - except mine was rhd.

1988 200 turbo auto in Nautic Blue with blue leather. Audi 2B 140kw/190bhp 5cyl engine (the manual gearbox version had 200bhp).
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 09:32:45 pm by Mike1410 »

Offline schattenblau

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2016, 09:47:54 pm »
1982 was a landmark year in cars

audi 100

citroen bx

ford sierra

fiat uno was 1983  ;)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 09:49:30 pm by schattenblau »

Offline Mike1410

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2016, 01:23:44 am »
1982 also saw the launch of the BMW E30 series - designed by the same bloke that designed the NSU Ro80 but certainly much longer lived! Also the launch of the  Lancia Prisma (saloon version of the Delta) - they were quite popular around where I was living at the time, but then I was quite near a Lancia dealership  ;D. Were Lancia cars ever sold in NZ?

Offline spooln

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2016, 07:45:10 am »
Lancia, they sure were. Lots of Beta coupes and the longer hatchback thing were sold, including the supercharged models. Seen a prism a as well but not sure if it's was NZ new or not. A few delta turbos and a handful of16v integrale's.
77 CS1 Fiat Spider. 78 Mk1 Scirocco. 83 Mk1 GTI.12 Abarth 595C Competizione, 17 XC90 T6 Polestar.

Offline schattenblau

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Re: VW Phaeton revisited
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2016, 11:16:33 am »
integrale 16v sold nz new ?

 ???

only nz new integrale i know of was the red domett evo 2 (?) - sold nz new and converted to rhd

i had an nz new lancia hpe ie - worse car i've ever owned !