MK3 Golf Starting Issues 1.8L

Started by 124dude, January 09, 2017, 11:41:55 AM

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124dude

Morning all,

FYI we live in QLD, so it is an Aussie Built mk3...

My brother in-law has a 1.8L mk3 5dr golf manual and we are experiencing starting issues. It was very intermittent to begin with, with the starter ticking once and the other times nothing happening at all. Turn the key and dash lights do NOT dim. I have since charged the battery and tested, which came back ok, not new but not totally stuffed either. I also removed the starter motor and bench tested, which also tested fine. I had a spare starter which I fitted and same thing still happens. Turn the key and no body is home. The dash lights no not dim. It has no after-market alarm system, all factory.

I have tested for battery voltage and I get battery voltage at the starter motor from the battery positive direct feed wire (which is expected), I also get battery voltage at the exciter/solenoid switch wire when I turn the key (I had that plug disconnected to test). Yet with battery voltage at both those terminals, nothing happens. I can use a jump wire from the spade terminal where the exciter/solenoid switch wire connects to, and jump it straight to the battery positive feed wire on the starter and the vehicle will crank and turn over (if the key is in the on position).

So the question really is, am I missing something that needs testing or is there something else going on?

Vehicle is mostly standard apart from exhaust, lowering springs/shocks and a sound system.

Cheers

1971 Fiat 124 BC
Life's Short..... VASK IT

M M

How much voltage are you getting from that wire that activates the starter? Maybe it's putting out power but not enough to get it turning.
Bought not built.

124dude

Hey, Im getting whatever battery voltage is at the time when I turn they key. From memory, battery voltage was around 12.8-13.0v. I would get that figure at both the positive feed terminal and the exciter/solenoid switch wire once the key is cranked. Cheers
1971 Fiat 124 BC
Life's Short..... VASK IT

M M

Have you tried either jump starting the car with another or a jumper pack, or a new battery?
Bought not built.

124dude

Morning, I have tried using a jumper pack but does not help at all. Still same symptom as turn key and nothing happens. I have not tried a new battery - would have thought using a jumper pack would have eliminated the need of trying a new battery. Only thing I haven't tried is back probing the exciter/solenoid switch wire with it connected to the starter motor and see how many volts I am getting there. With it disconnected, I am getting whatever battery voltage is at the time of testing (12.8-13v).

Cheers.
1971 Fiat 124 BC
Life's Short..... VASK IT

M M

#5
Quote from: 124dude on January 10, 2017, 12:28:25 PM
Morning, I have tried using a jumper pack but does not help at all. Still same symptom as turn key and nothing happens. I have not tried a new battery - would have thought using a jumper pack would have eliminated the need of trying a new battery. Only thing I haven't tried is back probing the exciter/solenoid switch wire with it connected to the starter motor and see how many volts I am getting there. With it disconnected, I am getting whatever battery voltage is at the time of testing (12.8-13v).

Cheers.

Jumper or new battery would be the same so that's not the issue, unless your jumper cables aren't transferring enough current but I don't believe that is the issue in this case. Did you test the continuity of the trigger wire from the starter motor end to the ignition switch? If it's not that then really the only other thing I can think of is the ignition switch. Try jump that wire to power at the ignition switch plug and see if it turns over then.

Edit: One other thing, did you check your grounds? Make sure they are all ok. It's something often repeated but can cause all sorts of issues when overlooked.
Bought not built.

GLIDN

as a side note.

Have you checked crank angle sensor or knock sensor?
I'm guessing this a 2E engine mk3?

Or even insured there is fuel on turn over and the fuel pump has simply not died?
Audi A4 DTM - K04 NZ New | All bolt-ons | Carbon Clean done
2012 MK6R Golf |Stage 3+ | Stage 4 DSG | Tuned & Built by HSP Tuning

80 Vert

Quote from: GLIDN on January 10, 2017, 02:11:18 PM
as a side note.

Have you checked crank angle sensor or knock sensor?
I'm guessing this a 2E engine mk3?

Or even insured there is fuel on turn over and the fuel pump has simply not died?

Fuel pump or crank sensor does not stop it turning over which is what it is not doing........
2010 T5 Transporter TDI  Tuned by Superior Tuning NZ
2003 Jetta Coupe soon to be R36TT
1991 Golf GTI 2.0 TSI swapped
1963 Type 34 Karmann Ghia, turbo 2.0
1990 Porsche 964 911 Carrera 4
1980 1303 Beetle vert, under restoration

80 Vert

#8
Quote from: 124dude on January 09, 2017, 11:41:55 AM
Morning all,

FYI we live in QLD, so it is an Aussie Built mk3...

My brother in-law has a 1.8L mk3 5dr golf manual and we are experiencing starting issues. It was very intermittent to begin with, with the starter ticking once and the other times nothing happening at all. Turn the key and dash lights do NOT dim. I have since charged the battery and tested, which came back ok, not new but not totally stuffed either. I also removed the starter motor and bench tested, which also tested fine. I had a spare starter which I fitted and same thing still happens. Turn the key and no body is home. The dash lights no not dim. It has no after-market alarm system, all factory.

I have tested for battery voltage and I get battery voltage at the starter motor from the battery positive direct feed wire (which is expected), I also get battery voltage at the exciter/solenoid switch wire when I turn the key (I had that plug disconnected to test). Yet with battery voltage at both those terminals, nothing happens. I can use a jump wire from the spade terminal where the exciter/solenoid switch wire connects to, and jump it straight to the battery positive feed wire on the starter and the vehicle will crank and turn over (if the key is in the on position).

So the question really is, am I missing something that needs testing or is there something else going on?

Vehicle is mostly standard apart from exhaust, lowering springs/shocks and a sound system.

Cheers

Check you have a good chassis ground from battery to starter etc
When it does it again try this, put it in gear and rock back and forth then try again.
Sounds stupid I know but try it.
2010 T5 Transporter TDI  Tuned by Superior Tuning NZ
2003 Jetta Coupe soon to be R36TT
1991 Golf GTI 2.0 TSI swapped
1963 Type 34 Karmann Ghia, turbo 2.0
1990 Porsche 964 911 Carrera 4
1980 1303 Beetle vert, under restoration

124dude

Arvo,

Thanks for all the advice, I will give them a crack during the week.

The vehicle will start and run perfectly if I have the key in the On Position and use the jump wire to engage the starter. Could you then assume that crank/knock sensors and fuel system are operating normal? A faulty sensor may let engine crank but not fire and run? Once running, I can drive it & she's smooth as a whistle.

Thanks again for advice.... will keep posted.

1971 Fiat 124 BC
Life's Short..... VASK IT

80 Vert

Yes, a faulty sensor will just stop it running.
2010 T5 Transporter TDI  Tuned by Superior Tuning NZ
2003 Jetta Coupe soon to be R36TT
1991 Golf GTI 2.0 TSI swapped
1963 Type 34 Karmann Ghia, turbo 2.0
1990 Porsche 964 911 Carrera 4
1980 1303 Beetle vert, under restoration

GLIDN

Quote from: 124dude on January 10, 2017, 04:34:21 PM
Arvo,

Thanks for all the advice, I will give them a crack during the week.

The vehicle will start and run perfectly if I have the key in the On Position and use the jump wire to engage the starter. Could you then assume that crank/knock sensors and fuel system are operating normal? A faulty sensor may let engine crank but not fire and run? Once running, I can drive it & she's smooth as a whistle.

Thanks again for advice.... will keep posted.



In that case, ignore the fuel related issues.
Have you tried bridging the wires on the ignition column then?
Perhaps that's what's playing up if you mentioned you can short the starter and it fires up.

Thanks John (Vert80), missed the click once.
Audi A4 DTM - K04 NZ New | All bolt-ons | Carbon Clean done
2012 MK6R Golf |Stage 3+ | Stage 4 DSG | Tuned & Built by HSP Tuning

124dude

Gidday,

Have not tried to bridge the wires at the column. Does anyone know what the colour of the wires are? I haven't had it apart up there to look and see, is there a multi-plug etc etc??

I initially thought ignition barrel but when I tested for power at the exciter/solenoid switch wire and I got battery voltage when I turned the key, I ruled that out. My thought being that if I had no power at the exciter wire, then turned the key and got battery voltage at the exciter wire, that would suggest the key ignition system is working?

Thanks for your help!
1971 Fiat 124 BC
Life's Short..... VASK IT

M M

Quote from: 124dude on January 10, 2017, 06:44:48 PM
Gidday,

Have not tried to bridge the wires at the column. Does anyone know what the colour of the wires are? I haven't had it apart up there to look and see, is there a multi-plug etc etc??

I initially thought ignition barrel but when I tested for power at the exciter/solenoid switch wire and I got battery voltage when I turned the key, I ruled that out. My thought being that if I had no power at the exciter wire, then turned the key and got battery voltage at the exciter wire, that would suggest the key ignition system is working?

Thanks for your help!

Use this website to find out the wire colors, it has everything you need: http://a2resource.com/

As for the ignition part, not necessarily because it might not be sending enough current to ignite it. It's worth a shot in any case.
Bought not built.

124dude

Update Time:

We had a quiet day at work this afternoon, so in came the golf and started doing the tests suggested. I firstly started by testing for power at the exciter/solenoid switch wire with it connected and back-probing with my multi-meter. With the plug connected, it spiked to 2v then dropped to 0.2v. Obviously not enough volts to crank.

I then took the advice and headed towards the switch, as it seemed the most likely culprit. Once the column shroud were removed and the switch unplugged, I then bypassed the switch by jumping two wires. And what ya know, she cranked, and cranked.

Lesson of the day - VWs must require the plug connected to complete the circuit and to give accurate results.

So, I do have a spare parts car in the garage, but am in half-minds to fit second hand, as it may happen next week, or may happen in 10yrs.

Thanks again for your advice, and I'll know where to begin if something like this happens again.

Cheers

Scott
1971 Fiat 124 BC
Life's Short..... VASK IT

M M

I would just use the second hand one because as far as I know, this is not a very common issue with Golfs. Good to see you solved it.
Bought not built.

124dude

I'm going to use 2nd hand one from our parts car first and see what happens. If it does fault later on, then obviously I will source a new one. Thanks for your help again.
1971 Fiat 124 BC
Life's Short..... VASK IT

GLIDN

good to hear you may have gotten it sorted.

Don't you have a fastback or notchback aircooled VW over in Aus if I'm not mistaken?
Audi A4 DTM - K04 NZ New | All bolt-ons | Carbon Clean done
2012 MK6R Golf |Stage 3+ | Stage 4 DSG | Tuned & Built by HSP Tuning

124dude

Quote from: GLIDN on January 12, 2017, 02:08:46 PM
Don't you have a fastback or notchback aircooled VW over in Aus if I'm not mistaken?

Myself personally? No, I don't own any VWs. Only friends with people who own them (Rambo/Cameron).
1971 Fiat 124 BC
Life's Short..... VASK IT