VASK Forum (VW Audi SportKlub of NZ)

VOLKSWAGEN => Mk6 Golf - Jetta - Scirocco - Beetle => Topic started by: digginz on February 14, 2018, 11:16:38 AM

Title: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: digginz on February 14, 2018, 11:16:38 AM
Hey all, new to the forums.

I was looking at getting a mk6 R/s3 8p.  But after some research I found that I could potentially get a mk6 gti have it tuned and still have money left over as opposed to a stock 6R/S3.  What would be everyone's thoughts around this?  Is the R/S3 that much better of a car to warrant the extra cash?

I commute in to work so I don't "daily" my cars, so most of my driving is just putting around town and some spirited drives in the weekends (usually when the weather is good).

Any thoughts around this would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: Filx on February 14, 2018, 11:41:16 AM
For my 2c get the GTI, get a tune and some really good tires.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: schattenblau on February 14, 2018, 12:35:44 PM
ditto !

or first gen RS3 ?
they are dropping into the $40s now.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: DTM on February 14, 2018, 02:48:44 PM
Agree on the first gen RS3 , that 5 pot turbo  is a sublime motor and makes all the right noises with more than enough  power to keep you happy all day everyday. 
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: digginz on February 14, 2018, 03:19:16 PM
Would love a RS3, but unfortunately budget doesn't allow it.
Looking at spending around 25k.

I've read that the mk 6 gti's have issues with the timing tensioner and would be a good preempt to get it replaced, has anyone had this done?  And how much were the costs?
If I went down the gti route, id start with new wheels (not a fan on the stock ones) and some decent rubber, lowering springs, front and rear sway bars, and a stage 1 remap.

Enjoy the car for a bit then when I get the itch again, stage 2 with intake, turbo back exhaust.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: le mans on February 14, 2018, 03:44:14 PM
I wouldn?t say no to either but would go the 5-pot if budget allowed  >:D
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: DTM on February 14, 2018, 04:04:16 PM
I think you should also look at the MK6 Edition 35 GTI  which should be within your budget .
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: GLIDN on February 14, 2018, 05:21:41 PM
it comes down to what you want from your vehicle?

I have a mk5 GTI, mk6 GTI, MK6 R and Tiguan.
So I now know the ins and outs of all these platforms and done loads of R&D on my own cars.

Happy to take you out in any of them.
The R / S3 would be absolute last choice out of the 4. if you need 4wd? The Tiguan is a far better car overall. Even in handling + comfort.

From the collection the MK5 is for me, still the most fun car out of the lot. The least favourite id say is the 6R to the point I drive it out of necessity, not by choice. Yes it's silly fast and 12 second range (not flat 12) quarter mile car etc. Mid to late 3 second 0-100kph. It's not about the speed that intrigues me one little bit.
Instead it's about the overall experience and enjoyment I receive driving the cars.

The S3 is far more capable/enjoyable car compared to the R. But interior and boot are both smaller, which is the moot point.
So if set on a 6R or S3, get the S3 (2010 or newer) Pre 2010 had the BHZ engine which had a few issue, mainly the faulty injectors.

My mk6 GTi (Unitronic Stage 2 + Downpipe only) has managed a 13.9 Second quarter mile @ 103.6mph. To date a 5.4 second 0-100kph has been achieved. So these are actually a seriously quick car.

If you want/need or require anymore specific information? I'm more than happy to answer them. Shoot me a PM.
Yes I did tune all my own cars.

Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: digginz on February 14, 2018, 06:22:47 PM
Thanks all for the info, has helped a lot.

I guess dilemma is, I currently have 2 cars: 

My "Daily" a 2005 e90 BMW 330i, is fantastic, good power RWD and fun to kick the back out every now and then.  It has sports suspension/steering and a few other luxuries. However it is a little rough around the edges, couple dings and paint fade, head liner sag (from previous owner, I've never bothered addressing these being a daily).  I'm selling this to my sister.

My other car is a 2001 Subaru WRX STI (weekend toy), full tune with turbo back exhaust, suspension upgrades etc. Its making around 211 kw atw, 412nm torque at 23 psi. Loads of fun to drive and great on some B roads.  However I've had this for the past 7 years and its time to let it go, recently I feel every time I drive it feels more like a chore just to give it a run, and the fact that I just don't use both cars enough.  So its time to let her go...  (Currently for sale)

So I'd like to just go down to one car, given myself a budget of around 23-25k.  I've test driven the S3, I really like the styling and power feels like my stock STI did.  However I found the steering a tiny bit numb, definitely not as engaging as the BMW.  This brings me to the mk6 gti - I've test driven a mk7 gti, but as they are going for around 26-27ish and you can get a mk6 around the 18-19k mark and I dont feel it warrants the extra 8k-ish price tag that the 7 has over it.  I would rather spend that cash on modding the car and making it my own.

So for my budget:  AWD S3/R or a FWD gti6 modded for the same money. 

GLIDN - I'll shoot you a PM with some more questions :-)
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: schattenblau on February 14, 2018, 06:26:06 PM
Quote from: DTM on February 14, 2018, 04:04:16 PM
I think you should also look at the MK6 Edition 35 GTI  which should be within your budget .

there's 3 on tardme at the moment, 2x nz new, 1x juc, from $26k -30k.

plus a handful of mechanically similar juc mk5 gti pirellis from $10.5k - 22k.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: Naekyr on February 14, 2018, 09:06:48 PM
For your budget, you could technically get a low mileage mk7 gti, you may not have enough money left for the tune + exhaust, but then just save for a while

If I had that budget I'd rather try to get mk7 over mk6 GTI (there is going to be a huge boost in power and speed on the MK7 post tune vs the MK6 due to that larger turbo) - in fact a tuned MK7 is going to be even faster than a MK6 with an upgraded KO4 turbo (stage 3 tune)

But if you need the mods now, then the mk6 gti is still a great car, I've spent about 8k on mods on mine and it looks, sounds and drives like a total different animal

I've still got this inkling to make my exhaust more free flowing - Hennie, any customers of yours made their mk6 gti straight pipe? Is it too loud?
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: schattenblau on February 14, 2018, 10:25:46 PM
no longer legal to remove cats ?

in their golf gti roundup last year, autocar uk said the mk7 is clearly the better car but a mk5 gives you 80% of a mk7's ability for less than 20% of the money.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: Naekyr on February 15, 2018, 08:33:21 AM
Removing the cat is not legal but is not often detected during WOF that it's missing (mine has passed without issues)

Only way to guarantee a fail for a missing cat is if they started doing emissions testing at the back of the exhaust which they don't do

Currently my setup is a 3" de-cat downpipe going to a 2.75" non-resonated cat-back (the system is essentially straight until the rear muffler) and it's this muffler I'm considering cutting out or gutting

Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: GLIDN on February 15, 2018, 10:55:50 AM
Quote from: digginz on February 14, 2018, 06:22:47 PM
Thanks all for the info, has helped a lot.

I guess dilemma is, I currently have 2 cars: 

My "Daily" a 2005 e90 BMW 330i, is fantastic, good power RWD and fun to kick the back out every now and then.  It has sports suspension/steering and a few other luxuries. However it is a little rough around the edges, couple dings and paint fade, head liner sag (from previous owner, I've never bothered addressing these being a daily).  I'm selling this to my sister.

My other car is a 2001 Subaru WRX STI (weekend toy), full tune with turbo back exhaust, suspension upgrades etc. Its making around 211 kw atw, 412nm torque at 23 psi. Loads of fun to drive and great on some B roads.  However I've had this for the past 7 years and its time to let it go, recently I feel every time I drive it feels more like a chore just to give it a run, and the fact that I just don't use both cars enough.  So its time to let her go...  (Currently for sale)

So I'd like to just go down to one car, given myself a budget of around 23-25k.  I've test driven the S3, I really like the styling and power feels like my stock STI did.  However I found the steering a tiny bit numb, definitely not as engaging as the BMW.  This brings me to the mk6 gti - I've test driven a mk7 gti, but as they are going for around 26-27ish and you can get a mk6 around the 18-19k mark and I dont feel it warrants the extra 8k-ish price tag that the 7 has over it.  I would rather spend that cash on modding the car and making it my own.

So for my budget:  AWD S3/R or a FWD gti6 modded for the same money. 

GLIDN - I'll shoot you a PM with some more questions :-)

Firstly forget about comparing a RWD steering feel/feedback to a FWD car. It's never going to happen.
If you want feedback like that, go buy a Renault Megane RS (or whatever they are called)

A Stage 2HPFP MK5 GTI and Stage 2 MK6 gti will eat your Subaru for breakfast (rolling race). My tiguan is currently at 184kw @ the engine (140kw @ wheels) and it's heavier than my brothers STI Forester 2.5 (215kw @ Wheels). Until 80kph we are neck and neck in the acceleration department. Then when his turbo finally kicks in it's still not that much faster.

On the other hand, my mk6 gti makes my tiguan look slow in the accelation department.

If you're stretching to a mk7 territory budget? I'd recommend the mk7 gti. Downpipe and tune take these to 330-340HP.
On the mk6 platform - I'd take the GTI > R
On the mk7 platform - i'd take the R > GTI

The Audi S3 needs minor changes to make it more enjoyable, out the box it's better than the golf R. But still numb feeling.
Best part is getting the exact same car with almost $5000-10,000 price range cheaper than the golf R.

Quote from: Naekyr on February 14, 2018, 09:06:48 PM
For your budget, you could technically get a low mileage mk7 gti, you may not have enough money left for the tune + exhaust, but then just save for a while

If I had that budget I'd rather try to get mk7 over mk6 GTI (there is going to be a huge boost in power and speed on the MK7 post tune vs the MK6 due to that larger turbo) - in fact a tuned MK7 is going to be even faster than a MK6 with an upgraded KO4 turbo (stage 3 tune)

But if you need the mods now, then the mk6 gti is still a great car, I've spent about 8k on mods on mine and it looks, sounds and drives like a total different animal

I've still got this inkling to make my exhaust more free flowing - Hennie, any customers of yours made their mk6 gti straight pipe? Is it too loud?

As Naekyr mentioned about mk7 is on point.

Regarding the Stage 3 = K04 ? There is only one company that calls it that - which is stupid
Universally Stage 3 on the VW world applies to big turbo (k04 is not a big turbo)

Wow - that much already? with that budget set? I can easily build a K04 mk6 GTI with all bolt ons. making it a 287kw car.

Regarding the exhaust question - your existing exhaust is the part that lets the car down the most.
There are a few exhaust options which sound amazing and are able to give you the best of both worlds.

Straight pipe is never recommended - it simply sound horrible.
At least that's my take on it.

Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: Naekyr on February 15, 2018, 11:43:28 AM
8k was not all performance, spent quite a bit fitting new wheels and tyres and also into detailing (the car has a ceramic coating on almost the entire exterior) and installing new electronics that the car didn't have before

As for the exhaust, I'd like to hear more about the other exhaust options to give me the sound I want - PM me if you like, I can give you my number if you want to call me?

This is what my car currently sounds like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_ut_9y049A

This is what I want it to sound like (or similar to this)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTkokQHw7ek

Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: GLIDN on February 16, 2018, 09:39:45 AM
those are golf R exhaust. Neither which sounds like the mk6 gti.
On a side note, even retuning the vehicle can make the exact same exhaust sound much better or worse.

Verified again by re-tuning a customers 2009 Audi S4 yesterday, which was "custom dyno tuned".
Not only is all the raspiness in his exhaust gone now, his car has a much-much better air fuel ratio (extremely important). The car runs more efficiently and water + oil temps are much lower now too. Will be able to provide real world data via race track info in a few weeks also.

I'll have my mk6 for approx. 2 more weeks. Then it's off to its new home. I'm more than happy to take you for a drive in mine so you can hear the difference simply an exhaust makes.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: Filx on February 16, 2018, 09:44:29 AM
Quote from: GLIDN on February 14, 2018, 05:21:41 PM
it comes down to what you want from your vehicle?

I have a mk5 GTI, mk6 GTI, MK6 R and Tiguan.
So I now know the ins and outs of all these platforms and done loads of R&D on my own cars.

The least favourite id say is the 6R to the point I drive it out of necessity, not by choice. Yes it's silly fast and 12 second quarter mile car etc. Mid to late 3 second 0-100kph.

Sorry for the thread hijack but got some picks, clips of this R in action and the time slips?
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: GLIDN on February 16, 2018, 09:49:00 AM
Quote from: Filx on February 16, 2018, 09:44:29 AM
Sorry for the thread hijack but got some picks, clips of this R in action and the time slips?

I'll dig them out but doubt they will still have any viable data on them. Due to the thermal paper they use at Meremere.

However I go to race, not take videos.
Even stock mk7R's (yes I know they are a different car) does a 13.59-13.69 consistently.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: digginz on February 19, 2018, 10:47:35 AM
Thanks all for the info!

I'm a proud new owner of a mk6 gti!  Hope to pick it up today/tomorrow.

Gonna book it in to get the Timing tensioner/chain replaced with the updated one, just for peace of mind.

Also what is a good oil to use for these Engines? I've read castrol 5w30, just wondering what everyone here uses.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: The Red Warrior on February 19, 2018, 03:56:02 PM
Congrats on your new car!

I?m using Motul Specific in mine (mk5 GTI)
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: 80 Vert on February 19, 2018, 04:08:49 PM
Ive found 5w 40 to be a better oil. Oil pressure is also slightly higher as tested on my wife's car.
I also never ever leave oil and filter 15,000 km as advised by VW. Change both every 10k or earlier.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: GLIDN on February 20, 2018, 09:47:32 AM
Quote from: digginz on February 19, 2018, 10:47:35 AM
Thanks all for the info!

I'm a proud new owner of a mk6 gti!  Hope to pick it up today/tomorrow.

Gonna book it in to get the Timing tensioner/chain replaced with the updated one, just for peace of mind.

Also what is a good oil to use for these Engines? I've read castrol 5w30, just wondering what everyone here uses.
Congrats, that's good news indeed.

Quote from: 80 Vert on February 19, 2018, 04:08:49 PM
Ive found 5w 40 to be a better oil. Oil pressure is also slightly higher as tested on my wife's car.
I also never ever leave oil and filter 15,000 km as advised by VW. Change both every 10k or earlier.

I'm with John here, anything over 85,000kms? I switch to 5w40.

All my cars run Liqui-Moly. I use to only use motul. Till I found the wear rate on cambucket was still too high with Motul.
Switched to Liqui-moly and I still check cam follower (MK5 GTI), but now replace every second oil change.

I
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: digginz on February 20, 2018, 11:08:14 AM
Great, I've heard Liqui-Molly is the one to use. 
Where do you get yours from?  The Liqui-Molly site directs me to speed.co.nz

I've called a few Euro Specialist shops now, re the Timing Tensioner/chain, a lot of them seem to be pretty oblivious about the issues.  Said they will get back to me, but none have so far.
Has anyone one here had theirs replaced?  And what were the costs around it?
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: slowmo on February 20, 2018, 12:28:50 PM
Lots of scary stories about the tensioner on the mk6 GTI catastrophically disintegrating and like you I get no firm response from VW about it being a serviceable part. Last decent response I got was ?why would you want to do that??, suggesting that its a waste of time/money and that they hardly do that as preventative maintenance anyway?

I?ve got a warranty so i?m not too fussed yet. Mine?s happily plodded along to 130k km?s and i?ve owned my mk6 GTI for over 3 years.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: 80 Vert on February 20, 2018, 12:42:53 PM
The tensioners and chains are a major problem on the earlier cars (up to and inc MY 11)
I'm replacing plenty of engines gone boom because of it, In fact have one here right now for an engine swap.
I strongly urge you to change it and do both the chain and tensioner.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: slowmo on February 20, 2018, 02:59:08 PM
Thanks John, since I am based in Wellington and can?t take up your service, how many hours labour is involved and what are the parts required?
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: digginz on February 20, 2018, 04:18:22 PM
Thanks all for the input, I've booked the car in for Thursday with The Toy Shop here in Wellington to get the Tensioner/Chain replaced.
I'm not a gambling man, so deffo better safe than sorry.

He was a little confused as to why I would want it replaced, I told him to do it anyway  :-P
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: slowmo on February 20, 2018, 04:59:36 PM
Quote from: digginz on February 20, 2018, 04:18:22 PM
Thanks all for the input, I've booked the car in for Thursday with The Toy Shop here in Wellington to get the Tensioner/Chain replaced.
I'm not a gambling man, so deffo better safe than sorry.

He was a little confused as to why I would want it replaced, I told him to do it anyway  :-P

Lol case in point! Please do let us know approx cost/effort once you?ve had the work done.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: 80 Vert on February 20, 2018, 08:17:19 PM
5-6 hours labour plus parts and only use genuine parts as some aftermarket chains stretch prematurely.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: 22 on February 20, 2018, 08:48:29 PM
Quote from: digginz on February 20, 2018, 04:18:22 PM
Thanks all for the input, I've booked the car in for Thursday with The Toy Shop here in Wellington to get the Tensioner/Chain replaced.
I'm not a gambling man, so deffo better safe than sorry.

He was a little confused as to why I would want it replaced, I told him to do it anyway  :-P

John @ The Toy Shop will look after ya! His whole crew are great. They did my cambelt/water pump/cam follower etc. service about 6 mos ago.  Also did the thermostat replacement (main one) which is an absolute pig of a job to do.

Mention that you're a VASK member and see if he can give you a discount? I think he gave me a discount on the service.



Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: digginz on February 21, 2018, 09:57:34 AM
Got a reply from one of the Independents - Powerhaus, Wellington:


We have seen a few of this era golf with this problem not so much with the 2.0 litre mainly the 1.4 and 1.6 litre engines, and they generally show signs of a problem before serious damage is done (there are always exceptions but in general an obvious noise, a check engine light and or fault codes occur first but preventative maintenance is always a good idea).
Below are some prices for you to consider, they are of items we would recommend replacing if you were going to the extent of doing this job and make sense to replace whilst you are in that area.

Cam timing chain $252.43 + GST in stock locally
Updated timing chain tensioner  $90.43 + GST in stock locally
Timing chain slide Rail 1 $16.00 + GST ex Auckland
Timing chain slide Rail 2 $27.63 + GST ex Auckland
Timing chain slide Rail 3 $17.51+GST ex Auckland
Updated timing Case $297.21 + GST ex Auckland
Seal $53.29 + GST ex Auckland

As mentioned we haven?t seen one of these 2.0 litre engine fail yet but it is suggested that you also replace the secondary chain while carrying out this job.

Secondary Chain $252.43 + GST Ex Singapore
Secondary Tensioner $90.41 + GST, Ex Auckland
Chain slide rail 1 $16.00 + GST ex Auckland
Chain slide rail 2 $15.73 + GST ex Auckland
Chain slide rail 3 $16.00 + GST ex Auckland

It would be a good idea to replace the oil and filter also.

5 litres of 5w40 Liqui Moly oil $110.00 + gst 
Hengst oil filter $45.00 + gst

Parts total $1300.07 + gst
We would estimate 10 ? 12 hours labour to carry put this job $1176.00 + gst


I'm not sure if the secondary chain is necessary, but at least shows a complete break down.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: slowmo on February 21, 2018, 11:34:11 AM
That?s pretty comprehensive. Powerhaus is good loke that.

Reading some pf the aussie VW forums they concur with John?s estimate of 5-6 hours.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: Naekyr on February 21, 2018, 07:14:14 PM
That's quite a bit for preventative maintenance - are you planning on tuning the car? If not just buy mechanical insurance
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: 80 Vert on February 21, 2018, 08:43:19 PM
You don't need to do all of that.
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: digginz on February 28, 2018, 05:02:57 PM
Update:  Timing chain and tensioner have been replaced to the updated versions.  Got to see the difference between the two before they put it in.
Didnt know VW had updated the chain as well.

Now I have piece of mind, time for mods!  :-)
Title: Re: Tuned GTI mk6 or stock R/S3
Post by: daniel53 on May 04, 2018, 02:17:39 PM
Quote from: 80 Vert on February 21, 2018, 08:43:19 PM
You don't need to do all of that.

Ive just brought a mk6 GTI has 150ks so thinking of doing the chain and tensioner. You say dont need all of that, so what would be required? I was going to order parts off ECS Tuning.

Will service DSG box and filter and engine oil and filter at the same time.

Thanks