Some of you may remember me mentioning back in November/December that I was planning to purchase new suspension for my then very recently purchased Audi RS2. I did some research and decided to 'stretch' to the KW V3 adjustable kit as it appeared to be the bees knees (OEM plus quality with full adjustably) and therefore befitting such a special car. It is pretty expensive as you can imagine - it cost me 1400 GBP plus shipping plus tax plus MAF extortion. Here is a link to the product: http://shop.kw-suspensions.eu/index.php?page_id=product_single_view&sort=_&product_id=50951&mg=26&pg=160&page=1 (http://shop.kw-suspensions.eu/index.php?page_id=product_single_view&sort=_&product_id=50951&mg=26&pg=160&page=1) I have previous experience with adjustable suspension with my RS4, so I felt reasonably comfortable going down this path.
Anyway, the suspension duly arrived mid December and after wrestling with Fedex and customs for a few days I even got to take it home. I enjoyed unboxing it!
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_7290.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=f579d925b8d587c5163df2cec50f731ec0209b96) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_7290.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_7297.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=3ab1249d8157e3835afd184f36ee62cc34ff2890) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_7297.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_7308.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=ab5e36d243b2da777e3785bce5e985196e9654ed) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_7308.jpg.html)
It was fitted and set up, wheel alignment done and a certifier was there to sign it off. Here is where it went off the rails I'm afraid. The certifier took one look and said 'I can't certify this as it has an an aftermarket welded steering arm' (see the last picture above, which shows a front strut with steering arm). It turns out this certifier did not have the approval to sign off steering modifications but he was doubtful about getting it certified at all. He then referred me to someone who had the required approval to cover steering modifications. I was also referred to this LVVTA article which outlines LVVTA concern with aftermarket welded steering arms: http://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_05-2012_Welded_Aftermarket_Suspension_Struts.pdf (http://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_05-2012_Welded_Aftermarket_Suspension_Struts.pdf)
Anyway, here is the car after having the suspension fitted. A bittersweet feeling I can tell you:
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_7428.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=d8d2892b88d0c4824bfbfae85ab8597c47c4ae2e) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_7428.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_7427.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=0c7be90e24d72d348a927dd9b6a1ab474c7e79d3) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_7427.jpg.html)
Here is the original OEM suspension after removal:
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_7429.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=e96d7408c8f8329e6f54f55be4afc1a76a955e07) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_7429.jpg.html)
The new certifier sent mixed messages about the possibility of getting the suspension certified. He came and viewed the suspension fitted to the car in January and was quite positive about it at that time. He then took some photos and went away. I was advised that a formal approval would need to be requested from the LVVTA Technical Advisory Committee (TAC). The certifier did this on my behalf at a cost to him of $95. The TAC requested the TUV certificate which I had supplied to the certifier. It can be viewed here: http://docs.kwsuspension.de/ga-KWGFw-07-2677.pdf (http://docs.kwsuspension.de/ga-KWGFw-07-2677.pdf)
The TAC finally reviewed my case last Tuesday. And this is what they said:
QuoteTAC members viewed the TUV documentation, however the consensus was that there was still concern with the design and construction, and that the documentation was not sufficient to satisfy members that there was no possible chance of potential failure. TAC members all agreed that these can not be approved
So there you have it. This suspension kit, which can be safely and legally fitted to an RS2 in Germany or elsewhere in Europe, and support a car being driven on the autobahn at 260+ kph is not good enough for the LVVTA to sign off. So be warned, if you are considering aftermarket suspension for your B3/B4 you may never get it certified by the LVVTA.
I have nothing against the certifiers who tried to help me. To date I have't been charged a cent by either of them and they were very helpful to deal with. The communication was a bit sporadic, but you get that don't you! It seems that this ideological position of the LVVTA is holding them back. I have some sympathy as they assume some legal responsibility when they certify a 'modification' as safe, but the general lack of consideration for foreign certification is a bit over the top in my opinion, especially when you are dealing with an agency in the some country as where the car is manufactured. KW of course conforms to ISO quality standards too.
I am trying to refrain from more emotional language!
Wtf, some of the crap that they come up with is unbelievable.
A possible solution is to cut the spring perches of a set of original struts, buy the threaded sleeves and just use the springs and hats of the kws, chuck them in and go get a cert and just refit the kws after. Bit of dicking around tho
Can you not go down the track of getting an independent structural engineer to certify it ?
ie like a kit car would be certified from the ground up.
Further, I would take it up with KW, as they would be shocked at such a ruling as it effectively bans their product from sale. They may be able to provide further evidence of it being formerly certified in other countries, especially if anything was done in AU being such a close neighbour who we borrow some regulation from, it might be reason for an appeal.
I reckon Welded Steering arm would be at the very least twice as strong as the Poxy Cast Iron Factory Item...
I had an adjustable HnR kit in my rs2 and it was signed off. Said it was the best suspension they had seen.
KW should have full testing documents etc with all specs and regulation authority details included. Try and get that info off them perhaps?
Quote from: spooln on March 23, 2014, 09:26:21 PM
I had an adjustable HnR kit in my rs2 and it was signed off. Said it was the best suspension they had seen.
Do you remember what the front strut looked like? Did it have welded or cast steering arms?
Quote from: beeker on March 23, 2014, 12:27:47 PM
Can you not go down the track of getting an independent structural engineer to certify it ?
ie like a kit car would be certified from the ground up.
Further, I would take it up with KW, as they would be shocked at such a ruling as it effectively bans their product from sale. They may be able to provide further evidence of it being formerly certified in other countries, especially if anything was done in AU being such a close neighbour who we borrow some regulation from, it might be reason for an appeal.
I was following the guidance of my certifier and kept asking him if there was anything more I could do to support my case. All he wanted was the TUV certificate and indeed that is all that the TAC asked for. Zeitgeist has kindly given me a contact so will see where that goes.
Quote from: zeitgeist on March 23, 2014, 11:13:44 PM
KW should have full testing documents etc with all specs and regulation authority details included. Try and get that info off them perhaps?
Thanks again for the engineering contact. I did email KW's 'technical' team in Germany and received no reply. P*ssed about that but not overly surprised. I am going to email the local KW agent now. I have been avoiding that as I imported this kit myself and so I may not be very popular with them. The volume of KW components likely to be sold here with fabricated steering arms would be extremely low I would think so they may not be very interested. Anyway will see.
Quote from: beeker on March 23, 2014, 12:27:47 PM
Can you not go down the track of getting an independent structural engineer to certify it ?
ie like a kit car would be certified from the ground up.
Further, I would take it up with KW, as they would be shocked at such a ruling as it effectively bans their product from sale. They may be able to provide further evidence of it being formerly certified in other countries, especially if anything was done in AU being such a close neighbour who we borrow some regulation from, it might be reason for an appeal.
Thanks Noel. Are you saying there is a way of certifying the car and completely bypass the LVVTA? I was under the impression that the LVVTA was the only agency that could issue certs?
The NZ KW agent has forwarded my email to KW in Germany so hopefully they can supply some more supporting data. All may not be lost just yet!
A few suspension sets ups need to be cut and welded to allow coil overs (mainly BMW e30), they require someone with a current welding cert and a NDT test (usually xray) to verify the welds are fine.
Maybe esquire about what testing they require to pass?
The bmws dont have the arms welded to the strut like the audis do. Kw move them down and point them inwards slightly to correct steering geometry when its lowered
Engineering contact doesn't do certification work unfortunately so that's a no go at this stage.
Quote from: le mans on March 24, 2014, 09:57:11 AM
Thanks Noel. Are you saying there is a way of certifying the car and completely bypass the LVVTA? I was under the impression that the LVVTA was the only agency that could issue certs?
The NZ KW agent has forwarded my email to KW in Germany so hopefully they can supply some more supporting data. All may not be lost just yet!
Try Frasers cars on the north shore. They obviously build their own cars, and their are also a MANZ certifier. They should have some 'custom car' certifying experience.
Thanks Noel.
Big ups to Chris Petch at Autoquip, who is the NZ agent for KW. He has been really proactive on getting this sorted since I got in touch with him. Hopefully there will be a good outcome to this eventually. Seeing as Chris is being so helpful I'll plug his company here: http://www.autoquip.co.nz (http://www.autoquip.co.nz)
Hi
I am involved in this process so I can shed some light. LVV staff are not the pencil-pushers you might assume, we're a small organisation and each one of us is an enthusiastic petrolhead in one way or another:
http://www.lvvta.org.nz/about.html#about_staff (http://www.lvvta.org.nz/about.html#about_staff)
As well as the old Almac I have an A4 and a V5 Bora.
We have worked closely with the Transport Agency (NZTA) for over 20 years, developing alternative requirements for modified vehicles. We?re a non-profit organisation, not a government agency. We have a responsibility to ensure that vehicles are modified safely and that the modifications can be justified. If we didn't operate this way the ability for us all to make modifications would be under threat.
This KW suspension with the steering arm welded on isn?t of a common construction and so we need to ensure it is fit for purpose ? loss of steering from a poor design or construction is clearly a safety risk, not only for the vehicle occupants but other road users.
We have requirements around welding of steering components. A steering component that has been modified or custom manufactured can only be welded if there is no other practical option being available, in which case:
(i) the component must meet all requirements specified in 18.9 ?critical function welding requirements? in ?Chapter 18 - Attachment Systems? of the NZ Hobby Car Technical Manual; and
(ii) the modification or custom-manufacturing process must be carried out by a person who is professionally engaged in motor vehicle construction, has substantial experience in steering component manufacture, and who is specifically nominated in writing by the Technical Advisory Committee of the LVVTA.
This KW steering arm design has multiple welds, which are all potential fail points, hence the requirement above. We have had recent experience of well-known parts failing and so we don?t take anything for granted. This infosheet covers one such case:
http://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_01-2013_Unsafe_Aftermarket_Steering_Columns.pdf (http://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_01-2013_Unsafe_Aftermarket_Steering_Columns.pdf)
Another more relevant case we have dealt with is aftermarket suspension struts with cast or forged steering arms welded to the upright. This infosheet provides information: http://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_05-2012_Welded_Aftermarket_Suspension_Struts.pdf (http://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/infosheets/LVVTA_Info_05-2012_Welded_Aftermarket_Suspension_Struts.pdf)
A suspension supplier did go through this process and a strut was cut up and the welds inspected. It failed for poor weld quality. A second part was prepared and subjected to the same test and again failed. We concluded that the manufacturer did not understand how to weld to a casting or was not in control of their weld processes. The part was deemed to be sub-standard and posed a safety risk so it was not accepted.
Regarding the TuV documentation provided, this is the generic information TuV requires for suspension approval and does not make any mention of the steering arm. I suspect that a different TuV document should cover this aspect so we have asked for it.
We are working with KW to get all of the information to prove the suitability of the parts.
Regards
Dan
We'll I found that post very informative, professional and it's good to see the process involved.
Quote from: VW'n on March 28, 2014, 10:54:12 AM
We'll I found that post very informative, professional and it's good to see the process involved.
+ 1
I don't know much about the subject but very nice to see a response from the other side.
Thanks Dan. It's good to get some movement on this now and I appreciate your help liaising with KW. The rejection of the suspension really provided the clarity that this needed to elevated to a different level if any positive outcome was ever to eventuate. I hope KW are able to provide all the necessary data. I imagine some of it will be commercially sensitive so there will need to be a degree of trust on their part.
Looking at these certification issues from further back, would it not be worth doing some work with foreign certifying agencies to understand their standards? It might streamline things down the line for the LVVTA and avoid the need for these lengthy investigations and avoid us 'enthusiasts' from being left hanging in limbo for so long. The irony is not lost on me that if I lived in Germany and owned an RS2 I could fit this KW suspension and legally drive the car all over Europe. I do however understand that in NZ the LVVTA assume the responsibility for ensuring these aftermarket parts are safe and therefore you need to satisfy yourselves of that fact before you sign them off.
Thanks again for your help on sorting this issue. I'm acutely aware that there is still no assurance that this suspension kit will be passed, but at least there is hope!
We communicate with other regions, mostly Australia and the UK. As part of my work I read a lot of regulations and standards - the NZ rules are often based on them. The EU system seems very complex with many layers, down to individual country and it takes a long time to figure out where all the details are.
This KW case is a good example where a standard may miss an important aspect - the TuV document would be suitable for the majority of struts but not when there's a steering arm attached. That's not to say TuV hasn't considered it, there's probably another document for it we just need to find it. Along with a few other documents we should be able to 'tick all the boxes' and have enough data to make a robust decision.
We have many examples where a modification has passed in another country, only to find an issue, such as additional seats in the back of a camper van (half of our work is 'commercial', not all performance cars). There's an EU requirement that seatbelts must pass a load test of about 1600kg per occupant, so manufacturers build a frame and get it tested, like this one:
http://www.camperconversions.com/convert-your-van/seating-bed-systems/ (http://www.camperconversions.com/convert-your-van/seating-bed-systems/)
The trouble is that on some campers nobody then checked what that frame was attached to. We saw examples of the frame just screwed to plywood, which won't take anywhere the 3200kg load of a twin seat. Fortunately there's usually a solution that can be applied to sort it out.
We've learned that nothing can be taken for granted and often we have to spend a fair bit of time digging up the right compliance documents, as with this RS2.
There you go, an insight into vehicle compliance you never wanted to know about.
Dan
Dan - I'm finding your posts really interesting and I suspect others are too. Maybe it's an NZ small country thing but I can't imagine someone in the UK or European countries taking the time to post such a detailed, informative explanation on a forum like this.
It's great to hear your side of what's going on, and it helps dispel that "us vs. them" attitude that can arise between enthusiasts and "authorities" like the LVVTA
Hi Rob
You helped me out a few years back with a bit of VAGCOM diagnosis on my black A4 avant.
I really appreciate the feedback; we don't pipe up on some other forums much as it can get messy. I should have known that Audi people wouldn't be like that.
We'd better come through with the KW struts or opinions may change... no news from Germany yet.
Dan
Hey Jon/Dan, any updates in this issue?
KW sent some more information Friday evening NZ time. I'm not sure if it is exactly what LVVTA need but will find out soon I hope.
KW in Germany have committed to doing static testing of the RS2 struts for the LVVTA, but have given a time frame of '2 - 3 months' :(
LVVTA have asked for the following information, and I have no explanation why it is not readily available:
QuoteWe still need the following information in order to assess the component and to gain assurance that the part has been produced in a controlled manner:
1. Any other TuV documentation regarding the strut tube and steering arm assembly
2. Material specification of the strut tube and steering arm
3. Manufacturing process for the welding
4. Details of quality control processes for the arm/tube/welding
5. Test reports for the ultimate strength testing of the steering arm and for the cyclic durability, which should have comparison to the original Audi component
So far KW have not supplied any specific information on the RS2 KW suspension, only general information about TUV approvals and so on.
Quote from: le mans on March 27, 2014, 10:19:03 AM
Thanks Noel.
Big ups to Chris Petch at Autoquip, who is the NZ agent for KW. He has been really proactive on getting this sorted since I got in touch with him. Hopefully there will be a good outcome to this eventually. Seeing as Chris is being so helpful I'll plug his company here: http://www.autoquip.co.nz (http://www.autoquip.co.nz)
I was going to say "its a shame you didn't buy it off him"
Good on him for helping out, he was very helpful in communicating with the guys at KW when I had my KW's built up through autoquip, we highly recommend Chris.
Have said it before, if you want KW buy from him, his pricing was cheaper than buying online with the bonus of after sales backup.
Hope you get it all sorted soon, another avenue could be to talk to a motorsport company, you may be able to have them covered under an authority card, down side would be the cost and hassle of having to be a car club member and hold a club sport licence. Mine are covered by my authority card ;)
Quote from: RS on May 01, 2014, 12:27:52 PM
I was going to say "its a shame you didn't buy it off him"
Good on him for helping out, he was very helpful in communicating with the guys at KW when I had my KW's built up through autoquip, we highly recommend Chris.
Have said it before, if you want KW buy from him, his pricing was cheaper than buying online with the bonus of after sales backup.
Hope you get it all sorted soon, another avenue could be to talk to a motorsport company, you may be able to have them covered under an authority card, down side would be the cost and hassle of having to be a car club member and hold a club sport licence. Mine are covered by my authority card ;)
Chris has absolutely gone above and beyond the call of duty. Dan has also been really helpful. Without both of them getting involved I would have made no progress I suspect. I do regret not going through the local KW agent, but I did not know about autoquip when I started looking at aftermarket options. I had also considered kits from Koni, H&R and 2Bennet. I was also expecting the certification to be a formality, as it was when I installed the Bilstein adjustable kit on the RS4. So it's been a steep learning curve you might say! One thing I'll say is that the KW kit is top quality. Although the steering arms are fabricated items they are rock solid. As 80vert said to me in an email - 'you could hang the whole car off one of those arms'. Unfortunately these fabricated arms go against some fairly entrenched engineering principles held dear by the LVVTA, and I can certainly see where they are coming from even though it's outside my area of expertise.
Quote from: RS on May 01, 2014, 12:27:52 PM
... another avenue could be to talk to a motorsport company, you may be able to have them covered under an authority card...
Sorry that's not an option, the authority card doesn't cover suspension, if over threshold (adjustables are) it has to be LVV certified.
From MSNZ: http://www.motorsport.org.nz/content/lvv-motorsport-authority-cards (http://www.motorsport.org.nz/content/lvv-motorsport-authority-cards)
"MotorSport New Zealand (MSNZ) in conjunction with NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) and the Low Volume Vehicle Technical Association (LVVTA) has formulated alternative standards for vehicles permanently modified for motor sport competitions which require to be road registered and used on public roads.The MotorSport/LVV Authority Card is proof that a vehicle modified for motor sport purposes complies with accepted alternative standards (to those of the original manufacturer). The Authority Card details the owner, the vehicle and the applicable approved modifications. The Authority Card is recognised in the NZTA Rules and the LVV Code and is required in order to obtain a Warrant of Fitness.When an owner of a competition vehicle wishes to use it on a public road it is a legal requirement to have an Authority Card issued by MotorSport NZ, if any of the following items are fitted / modified:
Competition safety harness
Roll protection that extends forward of the front seating positions and/or modifications that effect the interior impact rule
Removal of an airbag SRS system
Braided hydraulic brake lines
Hydraulic handbrake
Plastic glazing."
Dan
O.K, scrap that then. Forget I mentioned anything! :-X :police:
Must be some kind of given that rally cars get away with it, non of our rally cars have ever needed a Low Volume to get a WOF or pass scrutineering or any other audit.
One of the cars has over $20,000 worth of suspension that would no doubt fail inspection for some reason, the car can handle 200kph on gravel through ruts though ;) >:D
OE and KW front struts were taken to the LVVTA TAC (Technical Advisory Committee) meeting last night. I don't know what their thoughts are yet. Here some side by side shots I took today:
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0010-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=ba8ebe8c5cc39f9862559524555180fd0b1f27fe) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0010-1.jpg.html)(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0023.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=a4604190d0ee0b86ad34ad4ff382a99591e674ef) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0023.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0026.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=81ba48b6c3fee2402b02b9193061c788deba7bbf) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0026.jpg.html)(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0027.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=516dfee94e13a1fe8521b3111acb028ec72e60cc) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0027.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0024.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=879947419655c470d0edb159095c6b8b05843cce) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0024.jpg.html)(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0025.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=37452e058b2a5274f468297408cfaac8e77008b0) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0025.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0019-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=3292f06e1f3e0053a82fb5c7ce4e24530580c70d) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0019-1.jpg.html)(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0020.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=ae70452643de912881b5c4db353739def9ecafc8) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0020.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0018-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=70ecbc8ac01b945f656bce2ac9186e5401421142) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0018-1.jpg.html)(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0017-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=d15df32036a1a427bee7cc7d321b65aeea537b2e) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0017-1.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0011-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=134479cd9cba176f3432eddc4e9add72f9cd28f7) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0011-1.jpg.html)(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0012-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=6d2dfb31b753a8cfffedc0dd0631997c80dabc2b) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0012-1.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0013-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=4a3a62bdbfd12855ae161b0f63cf68065c9dd268) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0013-1.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0014-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=eee88f50711b0b25334862f425fec96fb23b4e21) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0014-1.jpg.html)
whoa. to say this has dragged out is quite the understatement!
good luck!
Any updates Jon?
I did wonder what an after market suspension kit front struts step up would be like? If say your KW strut setup was on a non coilover kit it wouldnt be an issue and LVVTA wouldnt be looking at them. They only reason they are looking into it is because you have coilovers.
Quote from: RS ZWEI on June 03, 2014, 09:10:57 PM
Any updates Jon?
I did wonder what an after market suspension kit front struts step up would be like? If say your KW strut setup was on a non coilover kit it wouldnt be an issue and LVVTA wouldnt be looking at them. They only reason they are looking into it is because you have coilovers.
Any modified/welded steering component has to be certified.
No news yet. Waiting for KW to do some testing and pass the info to LVVTA.
Another month has passed Jon, any luck?
The wheel turns slowly. Hopefully not too much longer. Test results should be available soon according to KW.
Overdue for an update on this.
KW commissioned a static strength test from a local university in Germany. This is what we had been waiting so long for. The testing was finally completed with the report dated 10/09/14. They compared the steering arm on the OE RS2 strut and the KW RS2. The KW strut was stiffer than the OE strut and neither showed any evidence of cracking at Fmax of approx 20kN (the equivalent of hanging a 2 tonne weight off the steering arm!).
The LVVTA TAC met and discussed the new information. They basically kicked KW into touch and rejected the suspension for NZ certification again. I wont go into details as it's not for public consumption. Suffice it to say the German KW manager who has spent months following up on this was not a happy camper and neither was I. To be fair to TAC they did have a couple of valid points I thought, including a lack of fatigue testing data. KW have since produced some fatigue test results for a Mercedes component they make and showed the KW inox welds to be more resiliant than the OE welds. However this is mute as LVVTA have stopped replying to my emails and I can only assume they are not going to spend any more time on it. KW have also said they are not going to put any more resources into this so it's a stale mate.
The KW suspension is still on my car while I wait for a Koni/H&R kit I've ordered to arrive. On occasion I take the car for a cruise around the 'driveway' to keep the fluids moving around and the KW kit is just fabulous as a sports focussed set up. But alas it's not to be and I have to move on.
That is an unfortunate outcome particularly after the time and effort spent on it.
That makes me ANGRY.. :( I wont say anymore
Quote from: le mans on November 26, 2014, 08:41:52 PM
Overdue for an update on this.
KW commissioned a static strength test from a local university in Germany. This is what we had been waiting so long for. The testing was finally completed with the report dated 10/09/14. They compared the steering arm on the OE RS2 strut and the KW RS2. The KW strut was stiffer than the OE strut and neither showed any evidence of cracking at Fmax of approx 20kN (the equivalent of hanging a 2 tonne weight off the steering arm!).
The LVVTA TAC met and discussed the new information. They basically kicked KW into touch and rejected the suspension for NZ certification again. I wont go into details as it's not for public consumption. Suffice it to say the German KW manager who has spent months following up on this was not a happy camper and neither was I. To be fair to TAC they did have a couple of valid points I thought, including a lack of fatigue testing data. KW have since produced some fatigue test results for a Mercedes component they make and showed the KW inox welds to be more resiliant than the OE welds. However this is mute as LVVTA have stopped replying to my emails and I can only assume they are not going to spend any more time on it. KW have also said they are not going to put any more resources into this so it's a stale mate.
The KW suspension is still on my car while I wait for a Koni/H&R kit I've ordered to arrive. On occasion I take the car for a cruise around the 'driveway' to keep the fluids moving around and the KW kit is just fabulous as a sports focussed set up. But alas it's not to be and I have to move on.
Will KW refund you ?
Bugger! :(
What a pain.
Wow, I'm stunned!
For one I'm impressed with the support from KW with them actually commissioning a test at their cost (I assume it was their cost?) to support what must be an almost one off requirement meaning zero return on investment for them. That's awesome.
Secondly that some LVVTA TAC boffins still had enough concern about the product to not allow it after those tests were performed AND given the product is from one of the largest performance suspension manufacturers in the world (e.g. they must have sold thousands of these kits into some of the most litigious markets over the last 10+ years without issues?) AND that is going on an enthusiast vehicle that will not exactly be racking up thousands of km'!?!?!? :o >:(
I still think we live in one of the best countries on earth to be a automotive enthusiast with the freedoms that we do have and I understand they have rules they need to work within, but that's incredibly disappointing they can't make an exception in exceptional cases like this. From the outside looking in and based on the info available it seems like a huge failure of common sense.
When did common sense and a Govt dept have a relationship?
Quote from: Filx on November 27, 2014, 01:15:56 PM
Wow, I'm stunned!
For one I'm impressed with the support from KW with them actually commissioning a test at their cost (I assume it was their cost?) to support what must be an almost one off requirement meaning zero return on investment for them. That's awesome.
Secondly that some LVVTA TAC boffins still had enough concern about the product to not allow it after those tests were performed AND given the product is from one of the largest performance suspension manufacturers in the world (e.g. they must have sold thousands of these kits into some of the most litigious markets over the last 10+ years without issues?) AND that is going on an enthusiast vehicle that will not exactly be racking up thousands of km'!?!?!? :o >:(
I still think we live in one of the best countries on earth to be a automotive enthusiast with the freedoms that we do have and I understand they have rules they need to work within, but that's incredibly disappointing they can't make an exception in exceptional cases like this. From the outside looking in and based on the info available it seems like a huge failure of common sense.
This!
Suck pants. Can you on sell the kit to someone overseas with a less stupid process?
Wow I'm speechless.............not much else to say really, bureaucracy completely out of control.
Pikes River to blame I think. By the way LVVTA is not a govt dept. Could possibly on-sell - suspension is road legal pretty much anywhere in the northern hemisphere. Problem is the cost of shipping will make it hardly worth it.
Quote from: le mans on November 26, 2014, 08:41:52 PM
Overdue for an update on this.
KW commissioned a static strength test from a local university in Germany. This is what we had been waiting so long for. The testing was finally completed with the report dated 10/09/14. They compared the steering arm on the OE RS2 strut and the KW RS2. The KW strut was stiffer than the OE strut and neither showed any evidence of cracking at Fmax of approx 20kN (the equivalent of hanging a 2 tonne weight off the steering arm!).
The LVVTA TAC met and discussed the new information. They basically kicked KW into touch and rejected the suspension for NZ certification again. I wont go into details as it's not for public consumption. Suffice it to say the German KW manager who has spent months following up on this was not a happy camper and neither was I. To be fair to TAC they did have a couple of valid points I thought, including a lack of fatigue testing data. KW have since produced some fatigue test results for a Mercedes component they make and showed the KW inox welds to be more resiliant than the OE welds. However this is mute as LVVTA have stopped replying to my emails and I can only assume they are not going to spend any more time on it. KW have also said they are not going to put any more resources into this so it's a stale mate.
The KW suspension is still on my car while I wait for a Koni/H&R kit I've ordered to arrive. On occasion I take the car for a cruise around the 'driveway' to keep the fluids moving around and the KW kit is just fabulous as a sports focussed set up. But alas it's not to be and I have to move on.
:'(
Quote from: Filx on November 27, 2014, 01:15:56 PM
Wow, I'm stunned!
For one I'm impressed with the support from KW with them actually commissioning a test at their cost (I assume it was their cost?) to support what must be an almost one off requirement meaning zero return on investment for them. That's awesome.
Secondly that some LVVTA TAC boffins still had enough concern about the product to not allow it after those tests were performed AND given the product is from one of the largest performance suspension manufacturers in the world (e.g. they must have sold thousands of these kits into some of the most litigious markets over the last 10+ years without issues?) AND that is going on an enthusiast vehicle that will not exactly be racking up thousands of km'!?!?!? :o >:(
I still think we live in one of the best countries on earth to be a automotive enthusiast with the freedoms that we do have and I understand they have rules they need to work within, but that's incredibly disappointing they can't make an exception in exceptional cases like this. From the outside looking in and based on the info available it seems like a huge failure of common sense.
Phil, thanks for your comments. I find the 'obsession' over the steering arms interesting. Let's say a 'normal' front coilover strut (ie one without a steering arm attached) came detached from the chassis due weld failure you could expect quite an adverse outcome in terms of vehicle control and yet they don't require all this data for these aftermarket struts. Moreover, the multiple welds on the KW steering arm gives it more redundancy as a single weld failure would not result in complete failure of the arm.
Is the suspension specific to a RS2?
Quote from: le mans on November 28, 2014, 07:59:28 AM
Phil, thanks for your comments. I find the 'obsession' over the steering arms interesting. Let's say a 'normal' front coilover strut (ie one without a steering arm attached) came detached from the chassis due weld failure you could expect quite an adverse outcome in terms of vehicle control and yet they don't require all this data for these aftermarket struts. Moreover, the multiple welds on the KW steering arm gives it more redundancy as a single weld failure would not result in complete failure of the arm.
I agree, incredibly frustrating given some of the crappy coilovers on the market that you see get fitted and certified regularly. Also that there is no appeal process. I guess at some stage you have to say how much more time do you put into versus investing that in something more productive.
I would have thought you could resell the kit overseas and at least recoup some of the costs? An alternate strategy might be try and track down someone rallying/racing an S2 / CQ that might want it for a tarmac setup.
Quote from: le mans on November 28, 2014, 11:10:55 AM
It is, yes.
Will fit the b4 chassis sedan and avant
Quote from: Filx on November 28, 2014, 11:43:08 AM
I agree, incredibly frustrating given some of the crappy coilovers on the market that you see get fitted and certified regularly. Also that there is no appeal process. I guess at some stage you have to say how much more time do you put into versus investing that in something more productive.
I would have thought you could resell the kit overseas and at least recoup some of the costs? An alternate strategy might be try and track down someone rallying/racing an S2 / CQ that might want it for a tarmac setup.
Only the fronts would fit a coupe. Rears are for a sedan or avant
Quote from: le mans on November 28, 2014, 11:10:55 AM
It is, yes.
I wonder if the RS2 owner I met who is leaving NZ on Sunday which be keen on the coilovers?
Also, I know a couple of OZ based RS2 owner that I could ask if they are interested?
Quote from: Stanceking on November 28, 2014, 01:05:28 PM
Will fit the b4 chassis sedan and avant
Only the fronts would fit a coupe. Rears are for a sedan or avant
Ahh, yeah I forgot that. That does limit the market a bit more.
OK long shot here, dormant thread resurrection.
I would be interested to know if you ever had any further action from the LVVTA TAC people with regard to your suspension problems, well, in their eyes.
As it seems to me a group of self appointed amateur car builder have set themselves above a manufacturer, with nationally and internationally accepted standards, therefore denying NZ car enthusiasts the opportunity of fitting their cars with superior components.
One of LVVTA?s objectives is to have as wide a range of experience, knowledge and skills as possible covered by the TAC at all times, including welding, materials, fabrication, formal and practical engineering, along with knowledge in a diverse range of vehicle types and construction methods. Some
members are professional car builders, and all members have been in the vehicle modification and construction industry or hobby for at least 30 years. A technical representative from the NZ Transport Agency sits on the LVVTA Technical Advisory Committee. Hmmmmmm, a tech rep from NZTA, pen pushing, desk jockey, who? relevant qualifications for the position?
And from a review of the KW manufacturing facility.
KW Founder Klaus Wohlfarth is quite a visionary. He is the creator of the world's only, as far as we know, performance suspension company that is OEM quality capable. OEM quality capable, Porsche, BMW, Audi, and even lowly VW, recognise these components as satisfactory replacement components, but not he mighty NZ LVVTA TAC.
Does that mean their components are "direct replacement for original manufacturer parts" ?
So where's the problem? LVVTA TAC that's where
What technical qualifications do they have which are traceable through NZQA?
Anyway if this dies in cyberspace I won't be surprised, but if not, would be interested to hear any further info, as I am about to submit my car to their tender mercies.
Well put. It is about time they review and change their regulation standards and get in line with what the rest of the world has been doing for years. >:(
Thanks vwwife, that?s very succinct. I believe LVVTA do have significant expertise in their field but limited knowledge about some of the aftermarket companies they are assessing components from. I have contemplated going through the process again but this time having the strut tested locally (and probably destroyed in the process). This would obviously be quite costly.
Edit: For those of you not using the chrome plugin I?ve got the photbucket images from page 1 working again.
Interestingly enough the LVVTA document specifies that they have concerns with "cast or forged" components being welded. I can understand that as heating such components incorrectly could result in failure of the structure. However, the KW strut assembly appears to be neither cast nor forged.
One of the concerns relayed to me about the KW set up was the welded eye where the tie rod attaches to. As you can see in the side-by-side photos below the eye on the OE arm is inside an enclosure whereas the KW eye is not. I would be interested in any comments from people with knowledge/expertise in this area.
Quote from: le mans on May 07, 2014, 10:45:53 AM
OE and KW front struts were taken to the LVVTA TAC (Technical Advisory Committee) meeting last night. I don't know what their thoughts are yet. Here some side by side shots I took today:
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(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0026.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=81ba48b6c3fee2402b02b9193061c788deba7bbf) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0026.jpg.html)(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0027.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=516dfee94e13a1fe8521b3111acb028ec72e60cc) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0027.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0024.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=879947419655c470d0edb159095c6b8b05843cce) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0024.jpg.html)(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0025.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=37452e058b2a5274f468297408cfaac8e77008b0) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0025.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0019-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=3292f06e1f3e0053a82fb5c7ce4e24530580c70d) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0019-1.jpg.html)(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0020.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=ae70452643de912881b5c4db353739def9ecafc8) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0020.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0018-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=70ecbc8ac01b945f656bce2ac9186e5401421142) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0018-1.jpg.html)(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0017-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=d15df32036a1a427bee7cc7d321b65aeea537b2e) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0017-1.jpg.html)
(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0011-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=134479cd9cba176f3432eddc4e9add72f9cd28f7) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0011-1.jpg.html)(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0012-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=6d2dfb31b753a8cfffedc0dd0631997c80dabc2b) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0012-1.jpg.html)
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(https://www.vask.org.nz/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi178.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fw257%2Fjon_henderson%2FAudi%2FIMG_0014-1.jpg%7Eoriginal&hash=eee88f50711b0b25334862f425fec96fb23b4e21) (http://s178.photobucket.com/user/jon_henderson/media/Audi/IMG_0014-1.jpg.html)
The original is belt and braces, the after market is belt only
Quote from: brian on January 11, 2018, 11:14:50 AM
The original is belt and braces, the after market is belt only
Yep, and obviously having a system with less redundancy than OE is not seen as ideal.
hmm seems like the OE strut design welded on items are more rigid in cross section...
but that's just my first glance and what do I know... :)
KW had a specialist independently test an OE steering arm and KW steering arm (static only) and the KW arm deflected less than the OE arm out to around 19kN of force (about 1900KG in layman's terms).
Quote from: le mans on January 11, 2018, 03:17:40 PM
KW had a specialist independently test an OE steering arm and KW steering arm (static only) and the KW arm deflected less than the OE arm out to around 19kN of force (about 1900KG in layman's terms).
Deflection is one thing, if stressed to breaking point is another.
A bent arm is better than a broken one and the original is far more likely to distort rather than break. The whole design of it is to allow for that to happen.
Just my 10 cents worth.
Neither arm failed when tested, only 'bent'. Not sure what the general standard is for such components.
How were they loaded in the test?
Test rig hooked up to the eye in the steering arm. I have the report but reluctant to put it online.
Why is it that I can purchase a tow bar manufactured in Europe with a TUV certificate of compliance comfortably fit it and meet the current warrant of fitness requirements (when attached to a trailer). I can even have one locally manufactured and bench tested to pull 2500kg if I wish. (Don?t start me on the 50mm/1?7/8 towball debacle.)
Would appear the authority are reluctant to act on there very own policy and process here. They will recognise TUV cert when it suits (performance brake hoses for example) provided it does not expose the ministry at any potential legal risk.
March 2014 it was stated perfectly.....
It seems that this ideological position of the LVVTA is holding them back. I have some sympathy as they assume some legal responsibility when they certify a 'modification' as safe, but the general lack of consideration for foreign certification is a bit over the top in my opinion, especially when you are dealing with an agency in the some country as where the car is manufactured. KW of course conforms to ISO quality standards too.
I fail to see any problem with those KW struts, the lug welded to the side is only for the sway bar drop link.
The steering arm attachment is even x braced inside............I would argue the KW to be a stronger over all unit.
Been a few years since this little saga occurred. I note that Ken Block is quite happy to put this suspension kit (the URQ version) on his 16 year old daughter?s car (https://youtu.be/l--z2kDPs9U). Brian Scotto also had it fitted to his very own RS2. Given the budget and resources these guys have, they could have had any custom suspension kit made from them but chose to use KW. So no, I?m still not over it, ha!
I think those guys are sponsored by KW no? Regardless I'm sure its top notch stuff and I do want to run them in my 80 Avant at some point in time!
I'm angry too >:(