VASK Forum (VW Audi SportKlub of NZ)

VOLKSWAGEN => Other Volkswagen => Topic started by: 106_racecar on June 02, 2011, 10:10:10 PM

Title: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on June 02, 2011, 10:10:10 PM
What are your thoughts on Touareg R5/VR6 3.2 vs a Merc 270cdi?

I understand the later is not a VAG, and had a poor reputation until about 2002 but I was quite with a 2005 diesel Merc 270 that we took out the other day.

The choice needs to be used for commuting and towing an 1800kg boat from time to time too.
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: RS4 on June 03, 2011, 12:12:08 AM
Personally the R5, with upgraded software, followed by the ML, then the 3.2 petrol.
Diesel for towing for sure, and you can make them pretty good all round vehicles.
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: beeker on June 03, 2011, 06:52:15 AM
Is that the new shape ML? If so, definitely consider it.

Had a friend consider the R5, and once he test drove one he couldn't bear the lack of power and purchased a 3.2 petrol.

Either would smash towing a 1800kg boat i suspect (braked i assume).

Take both for a drive (ideally back to back) and make your own mind up.
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on June 03, 2011, 08:16:48 AM
unfortunately the only ones locally to drive are the Mercedes ML 270CD (2005 and old shape) and the Touareg 3.2 V6.

The 04 Touareg has 57000kms and the ML has 87000kms is the last of the old shape but a special edition and apparently the probs were ironed out from 03, so should be reliable.

The Merc 270 pulled like a train and apparently can tow well according to a guy I know that has one and a 1600kg boat. The Touareg has pretty low kms but I hear that 2004 had all sorts of problems, but then both have that stigma ... maybe the Merc more because of the early ones built in the US.  The 270cdi is built in Austria apparently.
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: mark2 golf on June 03, 2011, 04:34:03 PM
I have worked on a lot of 270 cdi and they are nothing but problems. stay away from the early ml's. the petrol's are better but still heaps of electrical problems.
I don't no any thing about the vw so can comment.
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on June 03, 2011, 04:50:52 PM
Quote from: mark2 golf on June 03, 2011, 04:34:03 PM
I have worked on a lot of 270 cdi and they are nothing but problems. stay away from the early ml's. the petrol's are better but still heaps of electrical problems.
I don't no any thing about the vw so can comment.
Yeah, I gather that the early ones were unreliable.  In your opinion is the ML reliable after 02/03, this is an 05?  What kind of electrical problems did you encounter? Anything common and to look for? 
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: beeker on June 03, 2011, 08:34:59 PM
Quote from: 106_racecar on June 03, 2011, 08:16:48 AM
unfortunately the only ones locally to drive are the Mercedes ML 270CD (2005 and old shape) and the Touareg 3.2 V6.

The 04 Touareg has 57000kms and the ML has 87000kms is the last of the old shape but a special edition and apparently the probs were ironed out from 03, so should be reliable.

The Merc 270 pulled like a train and apparently can tow well according to a guy I know that has one and a 1600kg boat. The Touareg has pretty low kms but I hear that 2004 had all sorts of problems, but then both have that stigma ... maybe the Merc more because of the early ones built in the US.  The 270cdi is built in Austria apparently.

Flag the old merc then, and get the treg
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on June 03, 2011, 09:00:12 PM
Quote from: beeker on June 03, 2011, 08:34:59 PM
Flag the old merc then, and get the treg

The Treg was under offer and has gone ... it only lasted 2 days!  So currently on offer leaves me with the ML270 which is about 5k too expensive, or the Treg in Chch.

Merc looks like this but silver and 87000kms: http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/mercedesbenz/auction-381247001.htm

What do you think of this one: http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/volkswagen/touareg/auction-379888790.htm

The kms are getting up and apparently they need new injectors at 150000kms, but this has been done already according to the dealer. 
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on June 05, 2011, 11:32:02 AM
Well, there was one more 2nd hand Touareg in Wellington at GT Volkswagen so I went to take it for a spin, only to see it was just coming back from a test drive.  That person bought it so I will have to wait for another, buy from out of town or go for the ML.

Frankly after looking over the ML and Touareg on the same yard the ML looks a bit dated although it does have an awesome stereo and off course the very good and economical 270TD motor!

Interestingly the sales guy said the same thing as beeker about the R5 vs the VR6 motor that it was quite slow and that the VR6 would be a much better day to day proposition.
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: RS4 on June 05, 2011, 03:53:24 PM
Just tune the R5 motor,
Take it to around 210-215 bhp and 480-490 Nm, whats not to like then?
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on June 06, 2011, 11:49:07 AM
Have you remapped a few of the R5's?  What was the reaction/comments?
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: beeker on June 06, 2011, 04:51:26 PM
Watch out for the facelift treg R5 (brown from memory) on TM. It came via turners as a repo. I was told that it had missed its last ~40kms of servicing!

Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: RS4 on June 06, 2011, 07:23:16 PM
We actually did another R5 the other day for a dealer in CHCH.
Makes a huge difference, and really brings it to where it should be. Definately underpowered at 175bhp etc.
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: mark2 golf on June 06, 2011, 08:43:30 PM
As far as I'm aware the 163 ml's did not change much. The injectors themselves are not the problem. it is  the design of the head and how they are fitted. with a stupid 6mm bolt. and a copper washer to seal them. it is just a design cock up every engineer i have talked to has said that will never work properly what were they thinking. they are a mission to fix if you can. we have one that comes in that i have had number 5 injector out 5 times in the last 4 years and its at the stage where it needs a new head. when they leak the compression gases come up the side and eat away at the head and injection.
As for electrical issues. the fuel pressure sensors and afm are very problematic. They have a crap can bus system witch can have issues. they are very heavy on brakes. will destroy front rotors in a couple of years. ball joints and tie rod ends don't last long and are expensive.

like i say i don't no the vw it might be just as bad but i worked for a merc dealer for 4 years and still have a few customers with them and from what i have seen i wouldn't get one.
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on June 07, 2011, 05:48:43 PM
Quote from: beeker on June 06, 2011, 04:51:26 PM
Watch out for the facelift treg R5 (brown from memory) on TM. It came via turners as a repo. I was told that it had missed its last ~40kms of servicing!

That Treg has been for sale for months, almost as long as the cheap R5 that is starting bids at $17500.
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on June 07, 2011, 05:50:52 PM
Quote from: mark2 golf on June 06, 2011, 08:43:30 PM
As far as I'm aware the 163 ml's did not change much. The injectors themselves are not the problem. it is  the design of the head and how they are fitted. with a stupid 6mm bolt. and a copper washer to seal them. it is just a design cock up every engineer i have talked to has said that will never work properly what were they thinking. they are a mission to fix if you can. we have one that comes in that i have had number 5 injector out 5 times in the last 4 years and its at the stage where it needs a new head. when they leak the compression gases come up the side and eat away at the head and injection.
As for electrical issues. the fuel pressure sensors and afm are very problematic. They have a crap can bus system witch can have issues. they are very heavy on brakes. will destroy front rotors in a couple of years. ball joints and tie rod ends don't last long and are expensive.

like i say i don't no the vw it might be just as bad but i worked for a merc dealer for 4 years and still have a few customers with them and from what i have seen i wouldn't get one.

That sounds like good advice, I presume that includes the later ML270's and a nz new 2005 wouldn't be immune to these issues?

Its looking like i'll end up in a petrol V6 T'reg ... if I can find a good one!
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: mark2 golf on June 07, 2011, 07:30:52 PM
yea all the 163 ml i have seen all run the 5 clyinder engine.
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on June 08, 2011, 04:55:20 PM
Quote from: beeker on June 03, 2011, 08:34:59 PM
Flag the old merc then, and get the treg
Still looking at both Merc and VW, and the 04 T'reg with almost 60000 kms has come up again for low 30's which seems like a reasonable deal.

Not sure about the antisocial image with SUV's but it is sure to be able to tow well!
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: beeker on June 08, 2011, 06:47:05 PM
Our 3.0Tdi tows like a dream.
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on June 09, 2011, 08:32:45 PM
I took the 3.2 V6 T'reg out and it goes pretty well for a big tank of a thing.

You seem to sit lower in the Merc ML270 and while I like the ML, I have heard too many negative things and I think that the T'reg will be a more reliable proposition long term.  I would also rather have the TDI V6 as it would have the go and the tow, but they are running close to twice the price!!
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: beeker on June 09, 2011, 09:06:15 PM
This looks like a project

http://www.turners.co.nz/Vehicles/Pages/Car.aspx?RefId=896804

Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: RS4 on June 09, 2011, 09:58:21 PM
Is that a repo im guessing.
Treated like crape i see.
Still if it goes for 40k i might be in :)
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on June 11, 2011, 10:02:41 AM
I missed out on the petrol T'reg, but suspect as per RS4 that a chipped R5 would be a better day to day proposition and would like to try one of those. Does anyone in Wellington have one that I could try?
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on June 13, 2011, 03:13:09 PM
Quote from: beeker on June 06, 2011, 04:51:26 PM
Watch out for the facelift treg R5 (brown from memory) on TM. It came via turners as a repo. I was told that it had missed its last ~40kms of servicing!

Is this the one you were talking about: http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/volkswagen/auction-380888066.htm
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on July 30, 2011, 11:10:35 PM
I have gone left field and taken out a diesel X5.  It went pretty well too and was tidier than any Touareg of similar vintage too ... anyone had any experience with them?
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: beeker on July 31, 2011, 07:14:59 AM
Quote from: 106_racecar on July 30, 2011, 11:10:35 PM
I have gone left field and taken out a diesel X5.  It went pretty well too and was tidier than any Touareg of similar vintage too ... anyone had any experience with them?

They are pretty good. Better handling car/truck than the Touareg/ML. They can suffer from some mechanical issues. Geabox / transfer case is one i know about. Gaskets and leaks is another. Inbetween that stuff, if you can get over how ugly they are, they are pretty good :)


Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: Angle on July 31, 2011, 09:26:12 AM
TOYOTA!!!
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on July 31, 2011, 10:31:04 AM
Quote from: beeker on July 31, 2011, 07:14:59 AM
They are pretty good. Better handling car/truck than the Touareg/ML. They can suffer from some mechanical issues. Geabox / transfer case is one i know about. Gaskets and leaks is another. Inbetween that stuff, if you can get over how ugly they are, they are pretty good :)
It sounds like a warranty will cover most of those ill's.  I prefer the Treg look but the way the X5 drives, although the sport version with 19" wheels looks ok.  It probably helps that the X5 is 200kgs lighter and this is the way the new T'reg is going.  I guess most people just don't need it as the are mainly bought for family duties and some serious towing.

I can't get over the fact that so many Touaregs have the coating rubbed off switches which has not happened in any of my Audi's and the T'reg is supposed to be upmarket?!!
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: beeker on July 31, 2011, 10:36:43 AM
Quote from: 106_racecar on July 31, 2011, 10:31:04 AM
I can't get over the fact that so many Touaregs have the coating rubbed off switches which has not happened in any of my Audi's and the T'reg is supposed to be upmarket?!!

Yes its a common issue; its the top soft touch / silicon coating. Our 2002 A4 started doing the same. Old boys 07 cayenne has some minor issues of the same, but only on the passenger side. Its a combination of some moisturisers and nails apparently. Touch wood, our treg is free form this, so far.
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: beeker on July 31, 2011, 10:41:26 AM
Quote from: AngleBox on July 31, 2011, 09:26:12 AM
TOYOTA!!!

Show me a ~big toyota 4wd with the same interior spec (quality and luxury items), ESP, 5 star crash rating, on road holding, for similar money?

Prado, no (unless you get the new one, but $$)
Landcruser, no (unless you get the new one, but $$)
Highlander, no
CRV, no
4Runner, no

Yes Toyotas are probably more reliable, but they dont have the refinement, treats and saftey of the euro's.


Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: brian on July 31, 2011, 10:40:15 AM
My brother spends his work day in a Toyota and hates it (the latest of several) and when it came to spending his own money bought a Nissan which he says is vastly superior to the Toyota in every way
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on July 31, 2011, 11:25:18 AM
Quote from: beeker on July 31, 2011, 10:41:26 AM
Show me a ~big toyota 4wd with the same interior spec (quality and luxury items), ESP, 5 star crash rating, on road holding, for similar money?

Prado, no (unless you get the new one, but $$)
Landcruser, no (unless you get the new one, but $$)
Highlander, no
CRV, no
4Runner, no

Yes Toyotas are probably more reliable, but they dont have the refinement, treats and saftey of the euro's.

Agreed and I prefer the refinement.  I was a bit stunned by the arrogance of the BMW dealer tho - he went on about his customers only having cars for 6 months because they can afford it - what a #$%^! 
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: beeker on July 31, 2011, 12:35:57 PM
Quote from: 106_racecar on July 31, 2011, 11:25:18 AM
Agreed and I prefer the refinement.  I was a bit stunned by the arrogance of the BMW dealer tho - he went on about his customers only having cars for 6 months because they can afford it - what a #$%^!

Its true thou, there is allot of people that turn prestige cars very frequently.
As for them being able to 'afford it', i would suggest only a proportion actually can, and the balance are living it up on credit or prioritising their spend on materialistic items (nothing wrong with that, life is short, if that's want turns your wheels).
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: brian on July 31, 2011, 12:48:25 PM
Quote from: beeker on July 31, 2011, 12:35:57 PM
Its true thou, there is allot of people that turn prestige cars very frequently.
As for them being able to 'afford it', i would suggest only a proportion actually can, and the balance are living it up on credit or prioritising their spend on materialistic items (nothing wrong with that, life is short, if that's want turns your wheels).

Sort of confirms what an insurance agent once told me of how he was visiting up market addresses with a BMW in the driveway and packing cases inside for furniture
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: 106_racecar on August 10, 2011, 02:54:50 PM
X5 it is!  ... no need to sell the furniture to buy it as per 'Brian245' as it was cheaper than the Touareg in the end!
Title: Re: VW Touareg vs Merc ML
Post by: brian on August 10, 2011, 03:07:52 PM
Quote from: 106_racecar on August 10, 2011, 02:54:50 PM
X5 it is!  ... no need to sell the furniture to buy it as per 'Brian245' as it was cheaper than the Touareg in the end!

Glad to hear that!!