VASK Forum (VW Audi SportKlub of NZ)

VOLKSWAGEN => Mk4 Golf - Bora - New Beetle => Topic started by: samdaynz on October 25, 2017, 11:51:49 am

Title: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: samdaynz on October 25, 2017, 11:51:49 am
Hi Guys,

I'm very new here and looking at getting my R32's ECU remapped. I am sure some people here have had it done, can anyone point me in the right direction to where is best? I'm a bit confused as to where to go as prices seem to range from $750 to $1500. I am based in Auckland.

Cheers!!
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: McDoof on October 25, 2017, 01:29:03 pm
Have a chat with GLIDN on this forum. He's done a few of them in his time. He's based on Brown's Bay
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: 80 Vert on October 25, 2017, 05:26:59 pm
Complete waste of money on a non turbo car, better to spend money on other upgrades.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: McDoof on October 26, 2017, 09:50:55 am
ECU remap on a N/A car might not give you big numbers to brag about, but it will give you a better torque curve if done right. IMO that makes the car much better to drive.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: 80 Vert on October 26, 2017, 12:12:30 pm
The gain will be soo small you will barely feel it. Many opinions out there on this subject this is just mine.
I'd never ever waste 750-1500 on remapping an N/A car.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: Worms on October 26, 2017, 12:57:25 pm
I've "heard" the R32's are NOT particularly responsive to remapping anyway, some minor gains but hardly worth it.

They actually have a really good low end torque curve, but they are NOT a performance engine, they're a bit of a clunker - 184kw from 3.2L is pretty mediocre, even in their day.

Cams and a map is a bit different, but that's getting into big dollars already.

Save up for a supercharger  >:D   I'm going to tell my Mrs that ours is broken and I need a new one  ;D

Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: McDoof on October 26, 2017, 01:59:09 pm
I guess my experience with a NA 3.0 Subaru was a bit different. A few reasons for that though. 1. The factory ECU map is terrible and leaves a big hole in the torque delivery.  2. The remap only cost $400, so not quite in VAG territory for prices.
In the end it cost me less then $1000 for headers, and ECU remap and got a useful 30something kw gain from it and a torque curve so flat it looked like a table.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: GLIDN on October 27, 2017, 10:40:18 pm
As I have tuned many mk4 R32 golfs.

I have seen as much as 20kw @ wheels increase in low RPM range 2000-4500rpm range.
There after it mellows out to 10-15kw @ the wheels increase. (yes I have dyno graphs)

So in short it's most certainly not a waste of time.
An entire new experience and the way the R32 should have been from the start.

To finish off, I have seen mk4 R32 golfs into the mid 13 second quarter mile bracket simply from a retune.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: 80 Vert on October 28, 2017, 08:11:14 am
Please post the dyno graphs, everyone always talks optimistic numbers but no one ever backs it up.
And please spare me with overseas graphs, NZ dyno plots before and after.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: Filx on October 30, 2017, 07:57:05 am
As I have tuned many mk4 R32 golfs.

I have seen as much as 20kw @ wheels increase in low RPM range 2000-4500rpm range.
There after it mellows out to 10-15kw @ the wheels increase. (yes I have dyno graphs)

So in short it's most certainly not a waste of time.
An entire new experience and the way the R32 should have been from the start.

To finish off, I have seen mk4 R32 golfs into the mid 13 second quarter mile bracket simply from a retune.

Oh common Hennie, I know you sell this stuff but really - a 20kw gain at the wheels at low RPM on a NA engine? The car is probably only making around 100kw at those RPMs and you're saying you can gain 20%. Where is that 20% extra air coming from to make that power?
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: M on October 30, 2017, 03:59:52 pm
We do remaps down here in Queenstown and I get asked almost weekly to do R32's. I always talk the customer out of it with the simple statement of "I wouldn't pay for it personally, therefore I wouldn't advise it either". But then, a salesman I am not.

There is a VERY slight difference in response but that is largely due to throttle mapping.  We have done the odd one that customer has insisted on or has wanted cat delete so needed it anyway and they say they "think" it feels better..... placebo in my eyes.

I will await the barrage of "your remaps must not be great then"  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: GLIDN on October 31, 2017, 09:29:27 am
Oh common Hennie, I know you sell this stuff but really - a 20kw gain at the wheels at low RPM on a NA engine? The car is probably only making around 100kw at those RPMs and you're saying you can gain 20%. Where is that 20% extra air coming from to make that power?

Phil, some how you may incorrect idea of what I do?
Unless it's physically worth it? I will not tune any car. Which is what I advise anyone I interact with.

Everyone works hard for their money and I understand this.
If I'm not willing to do something to my own car? I will most certainly not do it on anyone else's car.

To be fair I send away approx. 40% of clients due to their car not even being in sound condition before any mods are to be carried out.
I'd rather save anyone from themselves so to speak then take a dime from them, full well knowing the outcome will not be what it should be.

Do Remember thou... I owned my own Mk4 R32 for almost 2 years doing R&D from intakes, suspension, tuning and haldex controllers.
That way I know if something is actually a worthwhile investment/upgrade or not. This is why I advise against any intake mods on these. As they do not gain any note worthy power on this particular platform.

The power above quoted are specific to Mk4 R32.

The Mk5 typically only sees a 10-15kw increase. But again, that's not that big numbers?
How is this fact? The mk5 R32 achieving 0-100kph in 6.7 seconds now manages a very impressive 5.5 seconds 0-100kph.
That's most certainly noticeable. No matter which way you look at it?

I'll happily post a dyno graph. Once I have made yet another online account to host photo's with.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: 80 Vert on October 31, 2017, 10:27:46 am
To claim 20kw gain at 2000-4500 rpm on any NA car tells me you clearly do not understand how an NA engine works.
Let's see the dyno graphs as you claim, physically not possible without cams, raising rpm etc.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: VW'n on October 31, 2017, 10:47:46 am
Is even one OK with buttered popcorn?
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: NasTnaS on October 31, 2017, 11:31:22 am
hi Samdaynz,

I see its your first post so welcome to the Klub.

Are you daily driving this car?

Reason I ask is I have dabbled a little bit with modifying a Normal aspirated ( no turbo or supercharger ) car and I found to get any decent gains you need to change the camshafts and move the power band higher in the rev range and then provide the fuel to balance the air fuel ratio. This way you will make some gains in power, but and its a big but, you will sacrifice torque down low as you have changed the camshaft to do this and for a daily driver, torque is what you really want. In my opinion if you tuned your engine without any other mods I doubt you would notice any differences worth justifying the cost.

If its a track car, torque is still your friend but the sing of a 6 cylinder at high rpm with ITBS is the best sensation on this planet ( bar a few exceptions )

Cheers,
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: Filx on November 02, 2017, 07:54:52 am
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as I remain completely skeptical there's anywhere near that kind of power to be gained remapping an NA engine, if any at all. Maybe there's other benefits, maybe drivability, but that's not necessarily making any more power. Looking forward to seeing some form of proof of the benefit and happy to be proved wrong.

Phil, some how you may incorrect idea of what I do?
Unless it's physically worth it? I will not tune any car. Which is what I advise anyone I interact with.

Everyone works hard for their money and I understand this.
If I'm not willing to do something to my own car? I will most certainly not do it on anyone else's car.

To be fair I send away approx. 40% of clients due to their car not even being in sound condition before any mods are to be carried out.
I'd rather save anyone from themselves so to speak then take a dime from them, full well knowing the outcome will not be what it should be.

Do Remember thou... I owned my own Mk4 R32 for almost 2 years doing R&D from intakes, suspension, tuning and haldex controllers.
That way I know if something is actually a worthwhile investment/upgrade or not. This is why I advise against any intake mods on these. As they do not gain any note worthy power on this particular platform.

The power above quoted are specific to Mk4 R32.

The Mk5 typically only sees a 10-15kw increase. But again, that's not that big numbers?
How is this fact? The mk5 R32 achieving 0-100kph in 6.7 seconds now manages a very impressive 5.5 seconds 0-100kph.
That's most certainly noticeable. No matter which way you look at it?

I'll happily post a dyno graph. Once I have made yet another online account to host photo's with.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: McDoof on November 02, 2017, 09:40:55 am
To claim 20kw gain at 2000-4500 rpm on any NA car tells me you clearly do not understand how an NA engine works.
Let's see the dyno graphs as you claim, physically not possible without cams, raising rpm etc.

Doesn't the R32 engine have Variable Valve timing? I would have thought, that by getting the ignition timing and the VVT set up right, that there would be some decent gains to be made. I know that in the old days of push rod V8s that cams were needed, but with VVT you can have any number of cam setups in the same engine. These engines probably don't have a variable lift function, but VVT does help.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: 80 Vert on November 02, 2017, 10:15:58 am
Not to that extent it won't, lets be real here we are talking 32-35HP at the crank gain...........I don't think so.
But again that's just my opinion which I've always had, never remap an NA VW, not worth the $$ invested.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: McDoof on November 02, 2017, 10:28:05 am
Really there is only one way to see.
Genuine, made in NZ, before and after Dyno plots.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: RS ZWEI on November 02, 2017, 01:11:31 pm
Phil, some how you may incorrect idea of what I do?
Unless it's physically worth it? I will not tune any car. Which is what I advise anyone I interact with.

Everyone works hard for their money and I understand this.
If I'm not willing to do something to my own car? I will most certainly not do it on anyone else's car.

To be fair I send away approx. 40% of clients due to their car not even being in sound condition before any mods are to be carried out.
I'd rather save anyone from themselves so to speak then take a dime from them, full well knowing the outcome will not be what it should be.

Do Remember thou... I owned my own Mk4 R32 for almost 2 years doing R&D from intakes, suspension, tuning and haldex controllers.
That way I know if something is actually a worthwhile investment/upgrade or not. This is why I advise against any intake mods on these. As they do not gain any note worthy power on this particular platform.

The power above quoted are specific to Mk4 R32.

The Mk5 typically only sees a 10-15kw increase. But again, that's not that big numbers?
How is this fact? The mk5 R32 achieving 0-100kph in 6.7 seconds now manages a very impressive 5.5 seconds 0-100kph.
That's most certainly noticeable. No matter which way you look at it?

I'll happily post a dyno graph. Once I have made yet another online account to host photo's with.

Hennie, whats the trade off for this power gain? Does the fuel economy suffer?
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: Filx on November 02, 2017, 02:49:25 pm
Really there is only one way to see.
Genuine, made in NZ, before and after Dyno plots.

Agreed. But I doubt we'll see that any time soon.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: GLIDN on November 03, 2017, 05:58:47 pm
Hennie, whats the trade off for this power gain? Does the fuel economy suffer?


Nik if driving no differently? Then improvements have been seen. On my own R32 doing long distance driving I gained 100kms per tank.
Still not driving sedately however

Agreed. But I doubt we'll see that any time soon.

Jump on my facebook page, if you feel you need prove right this very minute.
I'm not here to advertise, simply to assist just like everyone else.

Sorry I was working till 4am finish off cars, this is only reason I have not yet had chance to post anything as of yet.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: GLIDN on November 03, 2017, 05:59:56 pm
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4582/38130077151_27e13b9e0a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/216qBvi)mk4_r32_dyno_stage1 (https://flic.kr/p/216qBvi) by Hennie Sadie (https://www.flickr.com/photos/159449768@N06/), on Flickr

There you go, before and after.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: NasTnaS on November 04, 2017, 08:52:09 am
Hey Hennie, what are the factors that are in play to give those gains? What settings did you play with to achieve that? Do you think there's any more to gain at the sacrifice of something else?
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: 80 Vert on November 04, 2017, 09:04:06 am
I guess we'll never know what other modifications were done to achieve those numbers, a remap alone won't do that.
Dyno graph could relate to anything, no supporting evidence to suggest what car, where etc etc.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: le mans on November 04, 2017, 11:53:07 am
I don't really fancy wading into this discussion, however one thing possibly worth noting is that factory tunes tend to favour a flat torque curve so it's possible the factory tune has the ignition significantly retarded below MBT (the ignition timing that gives the maximum torque at a given load point) lower down in the rpm range. The factory tune may also be leaner (for emissions) which would offer less knock resistance however knock isn't usually limiting on NA engine ie you get to MBT before it starts knocking. So I don't completely discount the possibility gains could be made without other hardware changes, however this is only speculation on my part.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: McDoof on November 06, 2017, 09:31:05 am
I've seen good gains on NA engines in the past, so that graph doesn't look out of the ordinary to me.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: schattenblau on November 06, 2017, 11:21:39 am
ditto
and the graphs don't go backwards !
i've seen tunes (eg. honda ) which produced less power than stock.

 ;D
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: GLIDN on November 06, 2017, 11:22:01 am
Hey Hennie, what are the factors that are in play to give those gains? What settings did you play with to achieve that? Do you think there's any more to gain at the sacrifice of something else?

Spent most of the time with variable valve timing then fuelling to achieve this.
This is was done a 3dr mk4 R32. Everything else being entirely stock (including Air filter)
Best part was that there was zero timing pull afterwards (Stock is actually between -3.5 and -4.5 degrees)

There is more power to be had. But with Stock Headers it's a little pointless as they cannot flow much more.
So Insuring the EGT's do not sky rocket is key.

Would I recommend the Headers + CAT removal on these? short answer is no, unless you had CAMS.
Power increase after this is not massive. Torque gain is noteworthy however.

But Cost of Headers, CAMS + labour and retuning. There are far better ways to spend money on a mk4 R32.
Such as Haldex upgrade, swaybars or Lighter brakes etc.

Having retuned a well known companies customers R32.
The tune was appalling with close to -11 degrees of timing pull (any power added was basically non-existent due to too much timing requested) . Can't believe the owner did not hear or feel the engine knock.
Removed this all, made the power more linear best of all after lots of logging. I spotted one case of -1.5 degrees of timing pull for 8 milliseconds. Just as a final touch, added no lift shift (Flat shifting) too.

I guess we'll never know what other modifications were done to achieve those numbers, a remap alone won't do that.
Dyno graph could relate to anything, no supporting evidence to suggest what car, where etc.


Doubt all you like John... I'm not here to convince you or even advertise my services as I stated previously.
You wanted a dyno graph of a before and after of a mk4 R32 on the dyno in 4wd mode, which is exactly what I provided.

However as a side note, that a remap alone can't achieve all that much?
On the 2014 RS7, I see gains of 97KW + 190Nm.
With nothing more than a remap alone. (Yes I understand its not even closely the same car)
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: Filx on November 13, 2017, 07:49:06 am
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4582/38130077151_27e13b9e0a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/216qBvi)mk4_r32_dyno_stage1 (https://flic.kr/p/216qBvi) by Hennie Sadie (https://www.flickr.com/photos/159449768@N06/), on Flickr

There you go, before and after.

I can't say that vague photo of a dyno screen does anything to make me less skeptical. I mean who's dyno was that? When was that done?

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, each to their own. I guess what you're saying is that VAG, with their millions of dollars and years of R&D, trying to sell performance cars in a highly competitive car market are leaving a lot of gains on the table with their NA engine mapping. Doesn't make sense to me but if people are happy to buy the maps and happy with the results then that's up to them.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: GLIDN on November 15, 2017, 05:45:07 pm
I can't say that vague photo of a dyno screen does anything to make me less skeptical. I mean who's dyno was that? When was that done?

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, each to their own. I guess what you're saying is that VAG, with their millions of dollars and years of R&D, trying to sell performance cars in a highly competitive car market are leaving a lot of gains on the table with their NA engine mapping. Doesn't make sense to me but if people are happy to buy the maps and happy with the results then that's up to them.

Well they do spend loads on R&D in a sense of fitting one model into all regions, fuel types and markets.
Yes, some markets have the ability to go more.

If we followed this train of thought? It would be impossible to unlock close to 80kw of power out of a Golf R by adding a few bolt on parts.
Therefore it's all relative.

If any of the Admin, don't mind me advertising company name or the likes?
I'll post it up.
Title: Re: MK4 R32 - ECU ReMap
Post by: McDoof on November 16, 2017, 09:51:58 am
I can't say that vague photo of a dyno screen does anything to make me less skeptical. I mean who's dyno was that? When was that done?

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, each to their own. I guess what you're saying is that VAG, with their millions of dollars and years of R&D, trying to sell performance cars in a highly competitive car market are leaving a lot of gains on the table with their NA engine mapping. Doesn't make sense to me but if people are happy to buy the maps and happy with the results then that's up to them.

VW does mass manufacturing. Each engine is slightly different. So they tune the car with the lowest common denominator in mind, then take a bit more out in case they got one wrong so that they don't end up with warranty issues. Each factory tune is done to provide the same experience with each and every car the rolls off the factory floor. That goes for power, economy, emissions and even down to the way the car sounds.

So what the leaves is a bit of headroom. Some cars have more than others even if they have come off the same assembly line.

This is the same thing across all mass produced vehicles.